I have a Gyuto made from HAP40 and it takes no more time to sharpen than any other steel just use the right stones. Of course hand grinding a big mortise chisel might be something else again but I will never have one so no problem, PM-V11 is no harder to sharpen than any other steel. PM steels have a distinct advantage over other high alloy steels in that they have a very fine grain structure and no big carbides. It is not how hard the steel is but how tough it is which will decide which sharpening medium to use so if you want to use Washitas for everything don't bother with PM steels unless you just want to burnish your Washita for razor use and suchlike.
Veritas PM-V11 plane irons for Stanley & Record
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Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I was looking for HHS irons on Amazon and I found none but this caught my eye -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kirschen-23060 ... lane+irons
I wonder what the purpose or gain from using stainless is?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kirschen-23060 ... lane+irons
I wonder what the purpose or gain from using stainless is?
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
No rust? :shock:
Regards from Perth
Derek
Regards from Perth
Derek
D_W":3o5xbsca said:
The Two Cherries irons are about $75 a pop. Of course these last years so the annual cost is peanuts. Same goes for any premium iron PM V11 and others.
Corneel
Established Member
essexalan":39m0ucad said:
I would say you don't have the terminology quite correct. Toughness is how good the steel can handle impact. It is usually meassured with a sharp swinging "hammer" which breaks the steel, and then the energy dissipated is meassured, the Charpy notch test. It takes a lot more energy to break a tough kind of steel, then a brittle steel which breaks at just the thought of swinging a hammer at it. For our tools toughness is important, not just because we don't want to end up with two chisels after some malleting action, it also determines the chippiness of the steel. A steel that is too brittle will wear out quickly because small chips are nicked out of the edge.
Hardness is meassured with an indenter puched into the steel under a certain load. The depth of the indent determines the hardness. More hardness increases the wear resistance, because the steel will resist deformation under the cutting action.
In simple steels it is all a matter of balancing the carbon content with the hardness. Making the steel harder usually also makes it more brittle. There is an optimum around 60 HRc for steels like O1, W1, white paper steel, cast steel. In a laminated iron, a carefull smith can go a little higher, because the softer lamination kind of protects the harder steel bit.
When you add alloys to the steel, especially the wear resistant ones like chromium, vanadium, moledenum, tungsten, cobalt, things become more complex. Those alloys mix with the carbon that hasn't been used up by the iron, and forms carbides. These are generally very hard. Way harder then the steel matrix around them. I don't think you really can meassure this extra hardness with a HRc tester, because the carbides are relatively small and well dispersed throughout the steel. But they sure make a difference in wear resistance. At the edge the steel around the carbides tends to wear off and those very hard carbides take the brunt of the cutting work. Because they are so hard the wear slowly. But they also wear slow on a grinding or honing stone. No free lunch! And when the carbides are harder then the stone's grit particles, like in Novaculite, then the stone is abraided more then the steel. The stone gets burnished which is really just a rounding of the grit particles.
In a traditionally made alloy steel, the carbides tend to form relatively big clumbs. These aren't very solidly attached in the steel matrix, so they brak out easilly. The edge tends to be chippy. Steel like A2 or D2 can have this problem. The nice thing about Powder Metal (PM) steels is that the carbides remain small. So you can get more of them into the steel without greatly reducing the toughness of the edge. They are still very hard, so the edge wears down slower, but they also are hard on the grinding stone, meaning it takes longer to grind.
There are many PM steels available today, all with a different mix of elements, optimised for a specific purpose. Many of them are for the industry. There they are looking for very long edge life to minimise the down time of the machinery. I wouldn't wonder if many of these tool bits are regarded to be disposable, so the grinding time isn't so important for them.
PMV-11 is a bit special. It is a stainless knife steel. It contains a lot of chrome (about 16%) and almost no vanadium. Chromium carbides are hard, but not the hardest. Vanadium carbides are a factor harder again. So the composition of this steel is a compromise between edge durability and grindability. It receives a lot of praise from the woodworking commun, so I guess the compromise is a good one. It grinds about twice as slow as O1, which is not an rediculous increase, but no free lunch again.
HAP40 is a PM steel with not a very high chromium content but with lots of vanadium, molebdenum and cobalt. That makes the steel very wear resistant, but also very hard to grind.
Thanks Corneel that says it a whole lot better and more correct than I did. I would ask though that if LN quote their A2 hardness at 60-62, LV quote 62-63 for their PM-V11 why the PM-V11 is stated as easier to sharpen. I do not notice any difference between the two on my stones but I do notice that O1 and cast steel abrade faster. Is it because the carbides are smaller and more evenly distributed in the PM-V11? Kind of guessed it had a lot of chromium because of the corrosion resistance.
V11 isn't easier to sharpen. There may have been a specific method that lv used to come up with that conclusion, but a2 is a bit easier to sharpen and will sharpen on more mediums (like a washita). V11 can be sharpened on natural stones, but it grades them. It'll pretty much halt a washita's sharpening.
Corneel
Established Member
DW's experience matches mine. LV themselves also say that A2 is in between O1 and PMV-11 when sharpening. I can't quite explain this difference. PMV-11 has a lot more chromium and more Carbon but is otherwise similar to A2.
The chromium in a stainless toolsteel doesn't all combine with carbon to make chromium carbides. There has to be a substantial amount of free chromium which is allowed to oxidise with the oxygen in the air to form a hard and closed chromium oxide layer on the outside of the steel. That is what makes the steel stainless.
In steel like O1 you will find about 1% carbon. About 0.7 of this is used in the steel matrix to austenise the steel which is what makes the steel hardenable. The rest is either oxidised during the forging and heat treating, or it combines with other iron atoms to make a simple ironcarbide which enhances the wear resistance of the steel. A2 also has about 1% of carbon. If 0.7 is needed for the austenising, then there is 0.3 % available to combine with chromium and the small amounts of vanadium and molebdenum which are added to the steel too. I am not a metalurgist or chemist so I don't know anything more about that. PMV-11 has more carbon, so there is also more carbon available for the formation of carbides. So I think there are just more of them, making sharpening a bit harder.
But on modern waterstones or on diamond or on alumium oxide lapping films, the difference is not so large that it would be neccessarily very noticable. Because DW was investigating the limits of his Washita stone he probably just happened to find this limit in PMV-11.
But if a real metalurgist is around, I would happily have him correct all my dilletantist errors in the above writings ;-)
The chromium in a stainless toolsteel doesn't all combine with carbon to make chromium carbides. There has to be a substantial amount of free chromium which is allowed to oxidise with the oxygen in the air to form a hard and closed chromium oxide layer on the outside of the steel. That is what makes the steel stainless.
In steel like O1 you will find about 1% carbon. About 0.7 of this is used in the steel matrix to austenise the steel which is what makes the steel hardenable. The rest is either oxidised during the forging and heat treating, or it combines with other iron atoms to make a simple ironcarbide which enhances the wear resistance of the steel. A2 also has about 1% of carbon. If 0.7 is needed for the austenising, then there is 0.3 % available to combine with chromium and the small amounts of vanadium and molebdenum which are added to the steel too. I am not a metalurgist or chemist so I don't know anything more about that. PMV-11 has more carbon, so there is also more carbon available for the formation of carbides. So I think there are just more of them, making sharpening a bit harder.
But on modern waterstones or on diamond or on alumium oxide lapping films, the difference is not so large that it would be neccessarily very noticable. Because DW was investigating the limits of his Washita stone he probably just happened to find this limit in PMV-11.
But if a real metalurgist is around, I would happily have him correct all my dilletantist errors in the above writings ;-)
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
So there's no point in it then?Corneel":1gm9csn6 said:
Unless he/she does a bit of woodwork his/her opinions would be worthless
No point at all in V11 then? Seems to be a widespread opinion.D_W":1gm9csn6 said:
Jacob":3usogkwf said:
I wouldn't say no point. If someone is using synthetic stones, and they are relatively new and sharpening is difficult for them, then it's a nice steel. It's very uniform, it's not that hard to sharpen compared to a true high speed steel, and it doesn't rust.
But for someone like me who doesn't mind quick sharpening on a single stone, it's not in the same league as the good quality older irons. It stays sharp longer than those older irons, but the feel of the old irons on a washita is super satisfying. Super. And the washita can keep sharpening them indefinitely without being graded by them.
Diamonds are pushed as a sharpening solution. If someone has a full diamond setup (which is really just two diamond sharpening items), it sharpens like nothing on them. Even M4 sharpens like nothing on diamonds, and M4 is like rubber on most other things. It just skates on abrasive.
V11 is a way to avoid bad A2, like what comes in Shepherd plane kits (or did). It is hard to sharpen, the irons were thick making them slower to grind and sharpen, and they failed in chunks. The best A2 I've used so far is Lie Nielsen's, but it's not cheap. There's not a great difference, it just seems a little less prone to chipping than other A2 that I've used (which is what makes an iron good to me, no chipping, no matter what type).
So, not pointless, I'd say. For two reasons - beginners seem to have a need for aggressive abrasives, slow sharpening processes and steel that lasts a long time. That's reason number one. Reason number 2 is that LV seems to be able to sell it quite well.
Pass the ward taper and parallel irons to me while everyone buys V11.
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
At the end of the day, we use what works for us. The problem making blanket statements of "best", "worthless", etc is that the conditions we base these on may not apply to others. It is important to recognise this point, and that "one man's meat is another man's poison".
In my experience - using Shapton and Sigma waterstones, and freehanding on a hollow grind - all tool steels are equally easy to hone. I can raise a wire on a Shapton Pro 1000 in 2 or 3 strokes. I rarely spend more than 60 seconds re-sharpening a PM-V11 plane blade. However, someone else with a less efficient set up and method may argue that anything more complex than O1 is too difficult and, as a result, "worthless".
On the abrasive Autralian woods I work with, I probably have to re-sharpen PM-V11 as frequently as David does using O1 on his more benign US timbers. I suspect that the UK timber is similarly mild in this respect. Again, the context is relevant when choosing a tool steel.
Regards from Perth
Derek
In my experience - using Shapton and Sigma waterstones, and freehanding on a hollow grind - all tool steels are equally easy to hone. I can raise a wire on a Shapton Pro 1000 in 2 or 3 strokes. I rarely spend more than 60 seconds re-sharpening a PM-V11 plane blade. However, someone else with a less efficient set up and method may argue that anything more complex than O1 is too difficult and, as a result, "worthless".
On the abrasive Autralian woods I work with, I probably have to re-sharpen PM-V11 as frequently as David does using O1 on his more benign US timbers. I suspect that the UK timber is similarly mild in this respect. Again, the context is relevant when choosing a tool steel.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Certainly would not recommend PM-V11 blades for a beginner and the OP was not one of those. Get some new Record blades cheap enough, coarse and fine India stones, honing oil, baby oil will do and have at it. Can't get a sharp edge and you wont then use a jig until you can get a sharp edge, practice, practice and then go back to hand honing only you will get there but nothing wrong with a jig. Now these Record .....clown has gone so let's call them joke or bean can special blades will get a sharp edge and plane softwoods quite nicely until you hit a knot when the edge will fold. Don't even think of the proposed one stone sharpening solutions unless you can afford an expensive 8" power grinder with CBN wheels to go with your Washita. Of course there are far better blades out there to buy when you are ready but a Ward blade will not fit in your Bailey plane ;0) Have no idea what the difference is between these much vaunted Ward irons and their many competitors, same steel, does sound like they may have been harder though. So you pay silly prices for Ward irons because they are harder, better engineered? Yet suggest buying PM-V11 because they are harder, very well engineered and you get slatted! I do not care if this steel lasts longer because I usually resharpen when I need a break and a quick touch up is better than waiting until the blade is blunt. In fact I think I will buy another one to stick in the smoother.
UK hardwoods are usually pretty benign unless you get something highly figured or teak.
UK hardwoods are usually pretty benign unless you get something highly figured or teak.
Ward are generally a bit harder than other vintage. Some of them too much so. I've gotten them for about the same price as other double iron sets, but they do go high sometimes, like in a clean parallel iron set or something (which is apt to be bid on by someone with a Norris pre war plane missing it's original iron). You just have to watch them sell to someone else in that case. They're often reasonable over there if found in planes instead of by themselves .. Sometimes less than irons sold alone.
Mathieson are also good, as are i.sorby. same feel, maybe a little difference in hardness, but none are soft as newer marples an robt. Sorby can be (and many other makers).
Mathieson are also good, as are i.sorby. same feel, maybe a little difference in hardness, but none are soft as newer marples an robt. Sorby can be (and many other makers).
Alan Peters used a Record plane and irons throughout his entire working life which included an apprenticeship in the then unmechanized Barnsley firm where all stock was hand processed. It didn't seem to hamper his output or his art. Except for those more or less forced to use harsh woods because of geographic locales, the whole thing is simply a nonissue. It's hard to imagine the prospect of being able to plane an extra thirty of forty minutes between honings is cause for such celebration and joy, yet it apparently is.
iNewbie
Established Member
Probably gives them as much joy as you moaning about them...
Without a doubt, but mine costs me no money and only a little time. Those on the never-ending upgrade path... fun to watch the contortions when something new hits the market. Last season's Prada, so on and so forth. Just buy the new pair of shoes because you want them (because, well, they're new!), nobody is fooled by the rest of it unless it's somebody else who wants a pair too -- all just the woodworking equivalent of Imelda Marcos's shoe closet. If it exists, I have to have it, I could be missing something, no I'M SURE I'm missing something - the people who make it told me so. All covered in any university's first year marketing course. "New and Improved" works. And if it doesn't really work or only marginally better, no matter, you'll convince yourself that it does by leaps and bounds. None of us are totally immune. Some you think would be, but are anything but. Amazing and entertaining stuff for sure.
Don't believe me? Wait until PM-V12 hits the market.
Don't believe me? Wait until PM-V12 hits the market.
iNewbie
Established Member
CStanford":2ddps0mq said:
Thats the choice you make - I'm not sure why you're worried about what others do with their money or time. Apart from wasting your own time, telling others they're wasting theirs when they're quite happy to do so. Its their pleasure - where as your seems to be in a world of sometimes true: I told you so.
Relax. Let people do their own thing. You don't have to save them, its how they'll learn from their own experience or continue in their pleasure of purchasing whatever they can afford.
I'm not worried about a thing. I enjoy these threads immensely, though it's probably worth noting that I never start them. You seem to be worried that I'm worried. Please, don't worry.
The OPs in these threads already have their minds made up, at least 90+ per cent do. That's all part and parcel of it. It's not the OPs question that makes it fun (though necessary to get the ball rolling), it's all the pseudo-scientific gobbledy **** (largely manufacturer ad copy) that people who've already made the same purchase used to convince themselves, and now the OP, that it made (or makes) perfect sense to buy this or that. And the 'this or that' doesn't matter. It's virtually the same mechanism in play.
These manufacturers are in fact selling quality tools. They will work. Some a little better than their precursors. But, the fact is that a lot of people buy them as stage props around which they can create a certain narrative about themselves (especially in their middle age) and is not lost on the manufacturers and certainly not lost on the people who develop their marketing. And this is true of lots of industries, goods, and products. It's a gift that keeps on giving on many levels.
If I can convince myself that I really NEED a longer lasting steel then perhaps one day I'll actually live into this rather benign delusion, but a delusion nevertheless. The fact that there have been longer lasting steels around for decades sort of spoils the fun but this inconvenient fact is pretty easily dismissed without too much mental effort, then, back to shopping!
The OPs in these threads already have their minds made up, at least 90+ per cent do. That's all part and parcel of it. It's not the OPs question that makes it fun (though necessary to get the ball rolling), it's all the pseudo-scientific gobbledy **** (largely manufacturer ad copy) that people who've already made the same purchase used to convince themselves, and now the OP, that it made (or makes) perfect sense to buy this or that. And the 'this or that' doesn't matter. It's virtually the same mechanism in play.
These manufacturers are in fact selling quality tools. They will work. Some a little better than their precursors. But, the fact is that a lot of people buy them as stage props around which they can create a certain narrative about themselves (especially in their middle age) and is not lost on the manufacturers and certainly not lost on the people who develop their marketing. And this is true of lots of industries, goods, and products. It's a gift that keeps on giving on many levels.
If I can convince myself that I really NEED a longer lasting steel then perhaps one day I'll actually live into this rather benign delusion, but a delusion nevertheless. The fact that there have been longer lasting steels around for decades sort of spoils the fun but this inconvenient fact is pretty easily dismissed without too much mental effort, then, back to shopping!
Predictable, but still fun!
