Veritas PM-V11 plane irons for Stanley & Record

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

There is nothing wrong with old Stanley blades, especially the laminated ones. For me, they are not the best choice because I predominantly use very hard and abrasive West Australian timbers, and O1/HCS does not last too long. I have a couple of old/original Clifton O1 blades (the hammered versions) and they take a great edge, but they do not hold it for long - again the wood I use, not the blades.

For many years I just used A2 blades, mainly in Veritas BU planes. They did a good job, but then I began using BD planes - Stanley, Veritas, LN - and choices were wider. Given that I am not going back to O1 (although I do enjoy using the Clifton blades when the wood is reasonably benign), the choice is really A2 vs PM-V11. The PM steel is the closest thing to O1, but also with better longevity than A2.

Choose blades to suit the wood. Also take notice of what is required to hone them - for example, I would not use PM steel if all I had was oil stones and I could not hollow grind. It would be inefficient. I'd rather use HCS blades and hone more frequently. Honing PM-V11 is really not much effort at all on good waterstones, such as Sigma, or ceramic stones, such as Spyderco. Once set up with the appropriate sharpening media, there is no extra effort involved. If you need the extra longevity of these blades, and are prepared to spend for it, then they do offer real benefits. Do not be afraid of sharpening them. On the other hand, if the extra durability comes with a cost that makes you wince, and they are not really needed for the wood you work, then an older replacement blade will do just as well.

The down side to old full length blades is that they likely have not been used by someone who knew how to prepare them, and you may be up for some work. The up side of new replacement blades from Veritas, Hock and others is that they will not require much work. The same may be said of the chipbreakers: my preference is for the new versions as they are almost ready to go (just add a high secondary to the leading edge), but the old Stanleys can work as well with some tuning. There are those who prefer them - strange people (Hi David )

Lots of pros and cons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

.....Honing PM-V11 is really not much effort at all on good waterstones, such as Sigma, or ceramic stones, such as Spyderco. Once set up with the appropriate sharpening media, there is no extra effort involved.

Just enormous expense and difficult sharpening regimes!

If you need the extra longevity of these blades, and are prepared to spend for it, then they do offer real benefits.

Who needs longevity? The typical modern woodworker would see most plane blades last a lifetime

The down side to old full length blades is that they likely have not been used by someone who knew how to prepare them, .....

You mean they knew NOT to prepare them! Nobody in the old days bothered with modern sharpening rituals such as flattening the face.
New blade, new chisel, 2 minutes max to sharpen and off you go!

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Derek Cohen (Perth, Oz) wrote:
.....Honing PM-V11 is really not much effort at all on good waterstones, such as Sigma, or ceramic stones, such as Spyderco. Once set up with the appropriate sharpening media, there is no extra effort involved.

Jacob:

Just enormous expense and difficult sharpening regimes!

Expense is relative. As I mentioned. And sharpening is just different from your system.

Who needs longevity? The typical modern woodworker would see most plane blades last a lifetime

Longevity of edge when working, not over a lifetime. With Clifton on Jarrah I may get a few minutes of planing. With PM-V11, this will extend many times over. Which is reasonable is your decision. I know which is mine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[DoctorWibble]

Worth stating, for the benefit of any newbies reading this thread, that its arguably better to start learning woodwork and to sharpen your tools with easily worked woods and softer steels. As you get better at using planes so you get better at sharpening and so you get better at using planes and so on. Eventually you forget about sharpening and concentrate on the work. Just as with driving you forget about making the car go and focus on where you're going. Same goes for chisels and saws.

Don't be seduced into thinking you're missing out or making do with second best by not buying into thick hard steels, bevel up planes and all the associated paraphernalia. You're not. The online obsession with these subjects reflects the fact that they are not the best route for newbies. Otherwise these people would be talking about wood work. Not tools.

Meanwhile it'll take you a lot longer to get your head round these expert debates than actually learn to sharpen and use an old plane.

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

Thanks all for your views.

I'm always developing my skills (aren't we all), but I don't consider myself a noob at all and I'm very happy with my current sharpening regime. My reason for considering upgrading my old plane irons is convenience... its not that I find sharpening a chore, but it does eat into the productive/enjoyment time, and if I can get a blade that lasts 2 or 3 times as long between sharpening then I would find value in that.

 

[Trafalgar]

You should buy one and see if you actually double or triple your time between honings. I suspect you won't, but I'm naturally a pessimist.

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

It's not like I'll be replacing all plane blades on a whim, I was just going to start with my No 4 1/2 smoother and see how that performed.

 

[Trafalgar]

Absolutely. It would be silly to replace them all without doing a trial on one plane first.

 

[Racers]

I have a LN 60 1/2 with a A2 blade that lasts a very long time between sharpenings, but it takes a long time to sharpen.
Its good to know that it will be sharp when you get it out of the cupboard!

But I have plained a lot of teak with O1 blades and I wish they where A2, you don't get long between sharpenings with O1 and teak etc.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

It's not like I'll be replacing all plane blades on a whim, I was just going to start with my No 4 1/2 smoother and see how that performed.

I bought a Japanese smoothcut and a Hock A2 to see what difference it made. They are different but not in any significant way from all the old blades I use - which also vary, some laminated, some not. I decided it was a slightly expensive and pointless procedure, and I might as well have stuck with the old instead.

 

[iNewbie]

It's not like I'll be replacing all plane blades on a whim, I was just going to start with my No 4 1/2 smoother and see how that performed.

I bought a Japanese smoothcut and a Hock A2 to see what difference it made. They are different but not in any significant way from all the old blades I use - which also vary, some laminated, some not. I decided it was a slightly expensive and pointless procedure, and I might as well have stuck with the old instead.

The question is about PMVII, though. Whats your experience with PMVII?

 

[DoctorWibble]

My old Stanley/records vary a little in their capacity to take a thicker blade. Theses Veritas blades are not thick but nor are they quite as thin as the originals and may not fit all your planes without help from a file on the back of the mouth. Especially as you'll likely be using a close cap iron. Won't do any harm filing there of course - it simply lets the frog move back a bit further and has no effect on the shaving. But if you'd rather not then might be worth making sure your chosen test bed has wiggle room for a slightly thicker blade.

 

[Jacob]

It's not like I'll be replacing all plane blades on a whim, I was just going to start with my No 4 1/2 smoother and see how that performed.

I bought a Japanese smoothcut and a Hock A2 to see what difference it made. They are different but not in any significant way from all the old blades I use - which also vary, some laminated, some not. I decided it was a slightly expensive and pointless procedure, and I might as well have stuck with the old instead.

The question is about PMVII, though. Whats your experience with PMVII?

Non at all.
My point is I just don't have any faith in the claims made for these expensive things. Most of the stories are just from novelty enthusiasts and salesmen. They'd have us buying new stuff every ten minutes if they could!

 

[D_W]

If you have a plane with an exceptionally tight mouth, Stu Tierney sells a very thin Tsunesaburo iron that is easier to sharpen than a V11 blade, but that lasts about as long in practical use. Lasts longer in a smoother than anything else I've ever used without going downhill on the finish quality.

I'd mention that it's a lot harder than a stanley iron, but it's no harder to sharpen than any modern alloyed iron.

I say Stu (toolsfromjapan.com) because most of the other places that sell those irons think they're selling jewelry.

 

[Bm101]

I'll mention it because no one else has. You might have to open up the mouth of your plane for it to be able to fit. No big deal but might be worth considering.

(edit. Sorry Dr Wibble, somehow missed your post)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Just to add to the alpha-numeric soup of fancy steels, don't forget Ray Iles's D2 Record/Stanley replacement irons - edge retention as good or better than A2 and PM V-11, so just the job for working abrasive timbers and man-made sheet goods, but probably needs diamond or ceramic stones for honing. (That's the downside of abrasion resistance in service - abrasion resistance during sharpening). Available from The Old Tool Store - http://www.oldtools.free-online.co.uk/ - click on 'Replacement Plane Irons' on the left hand side. Perhaps the same or better edge life than PM V-11, but substantially less in first cost.

Personal opinion - unless you do enough planing work to wear out irons regularly, or you work hard, abrasive timbers a lot, or you really feel like experimenting for your own interest, just carry on with the iron you already have. If sharpening is a chore, try to make it simpler and get some practice in - a quick hone-up and reset of a plane iron should only take two or three minutes, including getting the honing stones out. Even quicker for chisels - no cap-iron to reset or depth of cut setting to faff with. The ability to touch up a cutting edge quickly is a very worthwhile skill to develop, and once you can, it doesn't really matter much if an edge dulls in fifteen minutes rather than thirty.

 

[Jacob]

..... The ability to touch up a cutting edge quickly is a very worthwhile skill to develop, and once you can, it doesn't really matter much if an edge dulls in fifteen minutes rather than thirty.

In fact it's nice to have a little sharpening break anyway. Free-hand on a stone, stropping on your palm, whilst you listen to the radio, stare out of the window, and relax!

 

[shed9]

On the same vein of replacement irons, I notice Karl Holtey sells his own stamped 9 1/2 irons on Ebay these days and sells some reduced to £22.50 if the stamp itself is slightly faded.

 

[sploo]

...Then I'd buy 2nd hand planes, a whole plane will cost less than these dubious new blades. ...

To be honest, this for me is probably one of the best points that's been made on the thread: get yourself a couple of planes of the same type. Spend a few hours cleaning up and tuning the plane and blade when you first get them (to your level of operational and aesthetic taste) then have two identically set up planes on your bench and swap between them as required (or set them up slightly differently - if you find you prefer one with a heavier cut than the other).

Have a tea break, spend 5 mins hand sharpening them, and carry on.

(Aw, heck... I've turned into Jacob )

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I paid £30 for a Stanley No.8, £15 each for as new Stanley No.6c and No.4c, £10 for a Marples No.7 - all the others, the 4, the 4 1/2, the two 5s I didn't pay more than £5 each for. Once in a while I grind and hone everything. When they dull I just move from one to another. They are all several decades old and I've never felt the need for anything better.