US Election November 5th

[Blackswanwood]

When one candidate's former Chief of Staff when he was previously President warns that he is a fascist, he's probably not the best candidate for post of 'leader of the free world'. Even more so when so many others involved directly with him agree.

I think we've missed out his attitude towards women. It's for the US electorate to decide but I cannot think of any redeeming features in Trump.

 

[spanner48]

Because it isn't a fact, it's a lie and you've been sucking at the firehose of Russian propaganda again.

Perhaps "she" IS the firehose?

 

[Noel]

Perhaps "she" IS the firehose?

What do you mean?

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Whatever we may individually think of Trump (much of it right):

• the US is a democracy - folk, through the ballot box, get to choose the chief clown
• supporters are not all dumb rednecks - some are intelligent, articulate, successful, decent etc.
• he resonates with a US cowboy mindset - independent, tough, action not words, shoot first, small state, self reliance, etc.

He is a compromised character - for his supporters the positives exceed any negatives. Similar to Boris and Nigel in the UK - both flawed but enjoying a substantial support.

The success of such characters is a testament to a reality - the opposition have failed to persuade his supporters otherwise.

Democracy which we value so highly is about the electorate expressing a view through the ballot box, which the elected politicians should seek to deliver. Doing otherwise is an unacceptable arrogance.

 

[niall Y]

One has to ask oneself -" Did America completely fall to bits during Trump's last Presidency? " If it didn't , them it will probably survive another term.
The powers of a President are quite rightly restricted and if the democratic process elects Trump again, then that will be what the voters in America have decided.

 

[Jake]

... [misread I think]

 

[Agent_zed]

One has to ask oneself -" Did America completely fall to bits during Trump's last Presidency? " If it didn't , them it will probably survive another term.
The powers of a President are quite rightly restricted and if the democratic process elects Trump again, then that will be what the voters in America have decided.

Well you can't really blame Trump for Covid but his presidency wasn't exactly great. Whilst it was difficult for anyone to lead people through it he managed to confuse americans with mixed messaging and completely nonsensical 'suggestions' like injecting bleach, whilst pushing false information about invermectin. Whilst he himself was treated with the best medicine money could buy.

Trump also made the US a laughing stock to the rest of the world, worked to undermine the UN and NATO and arguably emboldened other countries to push forward with their own agendas e.g Russia. Yes, it was after Trump but that is because Putin was no longer getting what he wanted out of Trump and had to strike before NATO was prepared (thankfully it was in better shape than he realised). Ask yourself why Putin actively wants Trump in charge, and it's not because he thinks Trump will make America great again!

If his retoric is anything to go by he will be significantly worse this time and intends to load every position he can with diehard supporters as well as moving jobs that were previously protected under his jurisdiction making it possible to oust anyone that disagrees with him. In other words, becoming an Authoritarian leader.

Currently Biden has delivered higher GDP, higher jobs, lower cost healthcare, increased infrastructure spending, increased oil and gas production (not a good thing in my mind but to the average american it will be), decreased unemployment and is enjoying record high stockmarkets.

Not sure why anyone wants to go back to a billionaire giving tax breaks to other billionaires, whilst mostly golfing instead of working.

On the brightside if he gets in hopefully Europe will get it's act together and become stronger than before, hopefully with the UK joining more closely with them.

 

[RobinBHM]

Democracy which we value so highly is about the electorate expressing a view through the ballot box

"A well informed electorate is a pre-requisite for democracy"

 

[Fergie 307]

"A well informed electorate is a pre-requisite for democracy"

A statement that neatly covers the gulf between theory and reality

 

[Jake]

One has to ask oneself -" Did America completely fall to bits during Trump's last Presidency? " If it didn't , them it will probably survive another term.
The powers of a President are quite rightly restricted and if the democratic process elects Trump again, then that will be what the voters in America have decided.

It came closer than you seem to think to the brink. If the secret service detail that tried to remove Pence from the Capitol had succeeded or if the mob had succeeded in lynching him as they intended, the result of Jan 6 would have been very different under Grassley as the stand in speaker (who said in advance he expected to be counting the electoral college votes, not Pence - why would that be?). Pence (to his credit) broke the plot by refusing to accept the forged electoral college voting certificates from the plotters.

And if you are paying attention, the failed coup plotters have taken note of their failings in that period of presidency and fully intend to do it differently this time (see Project 2025).

Pence himself (the man's former VP for god's sake) on Trump:

"I believe that anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president of the United States," he said.

"And anyone who asked someone else to put them over the constitution should never be president of the United States again."

 

[Terry - Somerset]

"A well informed electorate is a pre-requisite for democracy"

A sincere and worthy proposition full of flaws.

Does this mean an ill informed electorate should do what they are told - replacing democracy with dictatorship. Does ill informed simply mean that they disagree with your view of the world.

Should there be exams which need to be passed to qualify for a vote - much as one needs to pass a driving test to drive. Who sets and marks the exams.

Those who fail - there will be a large number - will still be capable of serious public disruption, riot, armed uprising. How would their enthusiasm for democracy be controlled - police, prison, armed troops on the streets etc.

Perhaps - make "political studies" a mandatory part of the school curriculum, a pass at which would be required for university entry, qualifying for healthcare, pension, benefits etc. Brainwash students - award a pass only to those who can parrot the official line.

 

[Croolis]

Perhaps "she" IS the firehose?

 

[Chris152]

A sincere and worthy proposition full of flaws.

Does this mean an ill informed electorate should do what they are told - replacing democracy with dictatorship. Does ill informed simply mean that they disagree with your view of the world.

Should there be exams which need to be passed to qualify for a vote - much as one needs to pass a driving test to drive. Who sets and marks the exams.

Those who fail - there will be a large number - will still be capable of serious public disruption, riot, armed uprising. How would their enthusiasm for democracy be controlled - police, prison, armed troops on the streets etc.

Perhaps - make "political studies" a mandatory part of the school curriculum, a pass at which would be required for university entry, qualifying for healthcare, pension, benefits etc. Brainwash students - award a pass only to those who can parrot the official line.

Regardless of the flaws, Robin is quite right - an electorate that's ill-informed or ignorant can't form part of a meaningful democracy. Since the beginnings of modern democracy, those with power have sought ways to subvert it and maintain their control. We can see that nowhere more clearly than in certain quarters of the US in recent years.

 

[BC'er]

Regardless of the flaws, Robin is quite right - an electorate that's ill-informed or ignorant can't form part of a meaningful democracy. Since the beginnings of modern democracy, those with power have sought ways to subvert it and maintain their control. We can see that nowhere more clearly than in certain quarters of the US in recent years.

Yes, and that's why such concerted efforts have been made for so long to debase, demoralize, stupefy and distract them.

For those that haven't noticed.

 

[Delaney]

Regardless of the flaws, Robin is quite right - an electorate that's ill-informed or ignorant can't form part of a meaningful democracy. Since the beginnings of modern democracy, those with power have sought ways to subvert it and maintain their control. We can see that nowhere more clearly than in certain quarters of the US in recent years.

I don’t know, plenty of very informed, educated and ‘intelligent’ voters, would have voted for putting male rapists in women's prisons.

Common sense is the most important value and plenty of ‘intelligent’ people don’t have any.
I can read their posts here every day.

A few fully grown adult members here, would gladly turn this country into a socialist utopia, with all that entails. They’d probably reply to this post by saying “what’s wrong with a socialist utopia”.

I don’t think those people should be allowed to vote but voting is for everyone.
Luckily they’re in a minority and can’t get their way.

I’d take the instincts of the ‘man on the street’ over a university educated activist, all day long

 

[Croolis]

Trying to pretend that at any time in history people aren't easily led and easily lied to so that individuals or groups gain a following is absurd. It's how we are as a species.

 

[Chris152]

I don’t know, plenty of very informed, educated and ‘intelligent’ voters, would have voted for putting male rapists in women's prisons.

Common sense is the most important value and plenty of ‘intelligent’ people don’t have any.
I can read their posts here every day.

A few fully grown adult members here, would gladly turn this country into a socialist utopia, with all that entails. They’d probably reply to this post by saying “what’s wrong with a socialist utopia”.

I don’t think those people should be allowed to vote but voting is for everyone.
Luckily they’re in a minority and can’t get their way.

I’d take the instincts of the ‘man on the street’ over a university educated activist, all day long

So, are you making the case for people being ill-informed/ ignorant?

 

[Blackswanwood]

I don’t know, plenty of very informed, educated and ‘intelligent’ voters, would have voted for putting male rapists in women's prisons.

Common sense is the most important value and plenty of ‘intelligent’ people don’t have any.
I can read their posts here every day.

A few fully grown adult members here, would gladly turn this country into a socialist utopia, with all that entails. They’d probably reply to this post by saying “what’s wrong with a socialist utopia”.

I don’t think those people should be allowed to vote but voting is for everyone.
Luckily they’re in a minority and can’t get their way.

I’d take the instincts of the ‘man on the street’ over a university educated activist, all day long

I think you can read the quote about a well-informed electorate in two ways.

You seem to be interpreting it as saying there is something wrong with the electorate who don't vote in a particular way. Alternatively though the quote can be taken about what is dished up to them as information to inform them.

I've no easy answer to the challenges of either view. I do think the volume, immediacy and anonymity with corresponding lack of accountability of the way we get the news today doesn't help though.

It's never crossed my mind that people with different views to mine should not be allowed to vote or that because they do they lack common sense.

Common sense is an interesting notion. What proportion of mankind needs to think something before it becomes common sense? There's a left and right wing argument on most things that both sides maintain are common sense. We've debated another issue and have different views that we both probably would frame as common sense - it doesn't make either of us thick.

I'm possibly deluded but if people could step back and respect that not everyone shares their views but it doesn't make them stupid we'd be in a better place.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Regardless of the flaws, Robin is quite right - an electorate that's ill-informed or ignorant can't form part of a meaningful democracy. Since the beginnings of modern democracy, those with power have sought ways to subvert it and maintain their control. We can see that nowhere more clearly than in certain quarters of the US in recent years.

I largely agree - but unless alternatives solutions are found, the reality is:

“Democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time” from Winston Churchill.

 

[Delaney]

So, are you making the case for people being ill-informed/ ignorant?

People who are ill informed can also have a high level of common sense.

I think you can read the quote about a well-informed electorate in two ways.

You seem to be interpreting it as saying there is something wrong with the electorate who don't vote in a particular way. Alternatively though the quote can be taken about what is dished up to them as information to inform them.

I've no easy answer to the challenges of either view. I do think the volume, immediacy and anonymity with corresponding lack of accountability of the way we get the news today doesn't help though.

It's never crossed my mind that people with different views to mine should not be allowed to vote or that because they do they lack common sense.

Common sense is an interesting notion. What proportion of mankind needs to think something before it becomes common sense? There's a left and right wing argument on most things that both sides maintain are common sense. We've debated another issue and have different views that we both probably would frame as common sense - it doesn't make either of us thick.

I'm possibly deluded but if people could step back and respect that not everyone shares their views but it doesn't make them stupid we'd be in a better place.

I think the issue can arise from life experience.

Working class people (for want of a better description) imo generally have more common sense in certain areas because their life experiences come from living in a world, where they are more likely to be involved in violence, crime and people who want to rip them off.
We call it ‘street smart’.

Street smarts allow you to spot someone who’s no good pretty quickly and is a very transferable skillset imo when it comes to politics. Of course there are degrees of it and how it is deployed.
On the other hand, an educated person who has almost non of these experiences is open to vastly more amounts of manipulation. They are especially susceptible to appeals to empathy because they aren’t street smart. They don’t have much experience of when someone is exploiting that.

Again not a be all and end all but I believe a valid position as to why common sense ‘street smarts’ is potentially more valuable than a university degree, when it comes to spotting good ir bad ideas, by good or bad people.

What is the quote
“An idea so stupid only an intelligent person could think it”