Upgrade of my chisels

[hlvd]

I would like to pare the end of the mortice plumb, how would I do it, if the belly on the chisel pushes the edge away from the wall. I have nothing to register against, as my chisel is not flat, but it is a curve. Here is the illustration. I can angle the chisel so that the edge cuts the wood, but my chisel is no longer flat reference.
View attachment 140342

This seems to be a modern problem I’ve never encountered, how do these chisels become so curved?

 

[tibi]

This seems to be a modern problem I’ve never encountered, how do these chisels become so curved?

They were bought that way from a hardware store. They were my first chisels when I had little to no clue what I am buying.

 

[tibi]

By the way. I have finally purchased Pfeil Carpenter's chisels. The steel looks excellent. Elm handles were a bit crude and under-finished, but I assume it is by design. A little bit of sandpaper work and 2 coats of linseed oil made them feel great in my hands. The initial impression is very positive, but I need to test them in actual work to see how they fit in hand.

 

[hlvd]

They were bought that way from a hardware store. They were my first chisels when I had little to no clue what I am buying.

You could probably bend them back a bit and re flatten.

 

[D_W]

This seems to be a modern problem I’ve never encountered, how do these chisels become so curved?

people do it unintentionally chasing the wire edge on the back of a blade. It's not a problem unless you're using paring references or something and want to make a flat cut.

the first half inch or so of the chisel's length determines the direction of the cut, so if you're not using a paring reference, belly isn't a problem until it's so bad that you can't touch the wire edge from the back.

it probably starts when someone works the back of a chisel on a stone that's not flat in width (especially), and then to solve not reaching the wire edge, they chase it further.

 

[tibi]

people do it unintentionally chasing the wire edge on the back of a blade. It's not a problem unless you're using paring references or something and want to make a flat cut.

the first half inch or so of the chisel's length determines the direction of the cut, so if you're not using a paring reference, belly isn't a problem until it's so bad that you can't touch the wire edge from the back.

it probably starts when someone works the back of a chisel on a stone that's not flat in width (especially), and then to solve not reaching the wire edge, they chase it further.

David,

my chisels were not bellied because of overflattening the backs, but I have bought them that way. I use diamond stones, so they should be flat.

 

[D_W]

David,

my chisels were not bellied because of overflattening the backs, but I have bought them that way. I use diamond stones, so they should be flat.

Sorry, I didn't mean yours, but rather a lot of the older chisels that show up and the current trend of instructors to tell students to buy new chisels to avoid the bellying. David Charlesworth was big on that - but I remember seeing a DVD where he used paring blocks.

I will say this - I've had an enormous number of patternmaker's chisels (parers and gouges), and none of them have been bellied. There's something to sloppier workers in the past doing it.

Last year, I started off making chisels with a little bit of curvature and then flattened the last inch, and I liked them quite a bit because of that relief. I think it's intuitive. Not a single one of the first three or four people I sent chisels to liked it, though. This wasn't a lot of curvature, just a little, and it was gradual and controlled. People do like chisels to be flat - but with some experience, I doubt anyone will care if anything more than a bad just at the edge of the chisel is flat. Dead flat backed chisels dive, anyway, and a toolmaker here told me long ago that the paring chisels made in the golden era had some flex to keep them from diving in the cut. There is some truth to that - rigid chisels will dive.

 

[tibi]

Sorry, I didn't mean yours, but rather a lot of the older chisels that show up and the current trend of instructors to tell students to buy new chisels to avoid the bellying. David Charlesworth was big on that - but I remember seeing a DVD where he used paring blocks.

I will say this - I've had an enormous number of patternmaker's chisels (parers and gouges), and none of them have been bellied. There's something to sloppier workers in the past doing it.

Last year, I started off making chisels with a little bit of curvature and then flattened the last inch, and I liked them quite a bit because of that relief. I think it's intuitive. Not a single one of the first three or four people I sent chisels to liked it, though. This wasn't a lot of curvature, just a little, and it was gradual and controlled. People do like chisels to be flat - but with some experience, I doubt anyone will care if anything more than a bad just at the edge of the chisel is flat. Dead flat backed chisels dive, anyway, and a toolmaker here told me long ago that the paring chisels made in the golden era had some flex to keep them from diving in the cut. There is some truth to that - rigid chisels will dive.

Yes, I still need to try my new pfeil chisels in actual work. They seem to be a bit hollow, but only when comparing the edge to the furthest point on the back. If I were to measure the first inch, they are either flat or very slightly convex. But I think that it is in a controlled manner, as the engineering of the steel is very good. Also they came sharp with secondary bevel honed. Only handles were unfinished, as you warned me. I used some sandpaper and BLO and now they feel great.

 

[Jacob]

... the current trend of instructors to tell students to buy new chisels to avoid the bellying. David Charlesworth was big on that - ...

He invented the idea and gave it the name.
Time to let it go!

 

[D_W]

Yes, I still need to try my new pfeil chisels in actual work. They seem to be a bit hollow, but only when comparing the edge to the furthest point on the back. If I were to measure the first inch, they are either flat or very slightly convex. But I think that it is in a controlled manner, as the engineering of the steel is very good. Also they came sharp with secondary bevel honed. Only handles were unfinished, as you warned me. I used some sandpaper and BLO and now they feel great.

I don't know why they make the handles like that, but I'm assuming that it's to save a few pennies. Their carving tool handles are reasonably well finished.

A lot of chisels now go in automatic grinding machines that leave them ever so slightly hollow over their length deep into the tang, but most of it is not in the first two inches or so of the chisel. I have no idea why that is - it's unlikely to be on purpose. Just a bias of machines, maybe. their specs are "evasive", I'd say, at least in the US.

Made of "swiss alloy tool steel". That's interesting (sarcasm), but their carving tools are straightforward no BS and good. I sold a lot of chisels off once I started making chisels - it doesn't make a great deal of sense to keep many around, those I got on a sale deal so I used them sparingly (no issues with them) and out the door they went.

They put that type of secondary bevel on their carving tools, too - the only real complaint I have about anything they do is that they go through woodcraft here, who add an enormous markup on things and they're probably more expensive in the US (despite no VAT) than they are in any reasonably large market in the world with a VAT.

 

[J-G]

...in the US (despite no VAT) than they are in any reasonably large market in the world with a VAT.

Can't let that go!! Of course you have VAT - you call it 'Sales Tax' but it's tantamount to the same thing.

 

[D_W]

Can't let that go!! Of course you have VAT - you call it 'Sales Tax' but it's tantamount to the same thing.

Yes and no. It is a tax, it covers a smaller amount of things and around here where I live it's 6%. My county adds on another 1%. What I'm stating is that the price before sales tax is more than your price with VAT.

Well, maybe not in England, but the price in Europe.

The internet business selling pfeil tools in canada could pay ebay fees, ship tools from canada (which is somewhat confiscatory rates) and still beat woodcraft by 15%.

Woodcraft has a high cost structure - and they seem to work to get a lot of exclusive distribution, which is a bummer for anyone buying things here as they also seem to have shut down the ability of any of the canadian businesses to ship pfeil tools to the US, or at least advertise that they do - so even if someone in canada would ship them here, you'd never know.

Sebo (unrelated to woodworking) is another irk of mine - one of their X7 vacuums costs $1049 here plus tax. That's $1122 or 920 pounds. I see the X7 on UK amazon for about 300 pounds. I'm guessing amazon adds vat after that, but ....jeez. (I have two of those vacs on different floors here - but I found them at a commercial supply house, one for $425 delivered and the second about 10 years later for a little over $500 - they're sold as "sebo commercial" in the UK.

Marshall amplifiers are another, but those are US owned now. They're about double the cost here vs. what they are WITH VAT in continental europe.....and none of them are made in continental europe. they're so overpriced that they convinced me to just blow the money on a used two-rock amplifier, which I wouldn't have expected to even consider.

Long diatribe!! I like pfeil chisels and would buy a lot more of they were priced at something other than "makes no sense" level here.

 

[tibi]

Yes and no. It is a tax, it covers a smaller amount of things and around here where I live it's 6%. My county adds on another 1%. What I'm stating is that the price before sales tax is more than your price with VAT.

Well, maybe not in England, but the price in Europe.

The internet business selling pfeil tools in canada could pay ebay fees, ship tools from canada (which is somewhat confiscatory rates) and still beat woodcraft by 15%.

Woodcraft has a high cost structure - and they seem to work to get a lot of exclusive distribution, which is a bummer for anyone buying things here as they also seem to have shut down the ability of any of the canadian businesses to ship pfeil tools to the US, or at least advertise that they do - so even if someone in canada would ship them here, you'd never know.

Sebo (unrelated to woodworking) is another irk of mine - one of their X7 vacuums costs $1049 here plus tax. That's $1122 or 920 pounds. I see the X7 on UK amazon for about 300 pounds. I'm guessing amazon adds vat after that, but ....jeez. (I have two of those vacs on different floors here - but I found them at a commercial supply house, one for $425 delivered and the second about 10 years later for a little over $500 - they're sold as "sebo commercial" in the UK.

Marshall amplifiers are another, but those are US owned now. They're about double the cost here vs. what they are WITH VAT in continental europe.....and none of them are made in continental europe. they're so overpriced that they convinced me to just blow the money on a used two-rock amplifier, which I wouldn't have expected to even consider.

Long diatribe!! I like pfeil chisels and would buy a lot more of they were priced at something other than "makes no sense" level here.

I have paid 20 - 25 Eur per Pfeil chisel, which is the same as in USD, as the exchange rate is now almost 1:1. I do not know what the prices are in the US.

 

[tibi]

I have paid 20 - 25 Eur per Pfeil chisel, which is the same as in USD, as the exchange rate is now almost 1:1. I do not know what the prices are in the US.

I have checked it out and you pay at woodcraft double the price as here. 21.2 Eur for 6 mm chisel, compared to 39.99 USD.

 

[D_W]

I believe the set was around $250 for 5 plus sometimes shipping and always plus tax.

You can see what I mean about the distribution mark up that doesn't do anyone favors here. It's excusive distribution rights and it really rams it to the buyer.

 

[D_W]

Revise that - it's that price for a set of 6. they are sold out here at that, too.

I did something, and I can't remember what, to get the set for a fair bit less than that - some part of it was 10% off for signing up for a newsletter (which I canceled again right after the order).

For the equivalent of $120 or 6, they are excellent.

 

[vetman]

Hello
I’m new to this forum and this thread caught my eye
If you like Narex chisels, have a look at the ones from Axminster Tools.
Seem well made with stainless steel ferrules and comfortable hornbeam handles. They are made by Narex.
Can be bought as a set or indivually.
You only need to flatten the half inch or so behind the cutting edge. Slight con cavity of the rest of the back can be useful to reduce jamming ( or so I read somewhere)
Hope this is useful

 

[Jacob]

.......
You only need to flatten the half inch or so behind the cutting edge.

Ditto all and every flat chisel

Slight con cavity of the rest of the back can be useful to reduce jamming ( or so I read somewhere)
....

Sounds unlikely. Who gets chisels jammed anyway?

 

[tibi]

Hello
I’m new to this forum and this thread caught my eye
If you like Narex chisels, have a look at the ones from Axminster Tools.
Seem well made with stainless steel ferrules and comfortable hornbeam handles. They are made by Narex.
Can be bought as a set or indivually.
You only need to flatten the half inch or so behind the cutting edge. Slight con cavity of the rest of the back can be useful to reduce jamming ( or so I read somewhere)
Hope this is useful

Thank you. I have already bought Pfeil chisels - that is what I have decided for. But I have bought two Narex Mortice chisels as well. I did not try them yet.