Upgrade of my chisels

[Ttrees]

I don't think anyone is going to create a profile by taking off the burr,
Yet to notice anyway, wouldn't be put off sorting if needed.
Can't imagine it would be very often, but then again I don't dub the edges of mine too badly.

 

[Ttrees]

The "bellied chisel" problem is a recent invention, along with the terminology itself.
Can be ignored very easily!

Terminology should not to be ignored, as that way leads to ignorance.
Valuable things should be noted and championed instead IMO.
How are you going to explain without having some amount of language?

 

[Jacob]

I don't think anyone is going to create a profile by taking off the burr,
....

Over time the taking off of the burr will reshape the blade and is the single reason for so many old chisels being slightly convex on the face, though they started out hollow (most likely).

 

[Ttrees]

I won't argue as I don't have much experience with old chisels.
Just yet to note that happening with mine, not that mine have gotten much use, lol.
it could certainly be the case though.

Cheers
Tom

 

[Jameshow]

Over time the taking off of the burr will reshape the blade and is the single reason for so many old chisels being slightly convex on the face, though they started out hollow (most likely).

I have some original 5002 like that and they aren't any use for fine corner work as the edges are too rounded. I'd need to take a good chunk of blade off to get to where the edges are sharp.

 

[tibi]

The "bellied chisel" problem is a recent invention, along with the terminology itself.
Can be ignored very easily!

I would like to pare the end of the mortice plumb, how would I do it, if the belly on the chisel pushes the edge away from the wall. I have nothing to register against, as my chisel is not flat, but it is a curve. Here is the illustration. I can angle the chisel so that the edge cuts the wood, but my chisel is no longer flat reference.

 

[Ttrees]

Having a flat chisel will dive beyond the line also if not tenting, call it what you want.
Often registration means little if the force of the waste takes preference.

This will give ye a right laugh, but is foolproof, provided stock is parallel
Foolish time wise.
I love these graphite sticks, great for transferring.
that being aluminium not great compared to cast iron,
but with some lateral force can make very noticeable spots to carve out,
regardless of chisel profile, although a hollow chisel would be very hungry and kinda inaccurate at this stage.
This makes more sense for toolmaking, rather than anything else, but there are some cases like through mortises and the likes where this maybe useful.

Just highlighting the benefits of the belly, as it would speed me up a bit.
Maybe someday I will try some.

 

[Jacob]

I would like to pare the end of the mortice plumb, how would I do it, if the belly on the chisel pushes the edge away from the wall. I have nothing to register against, as my chisel is not flat, but it is a curve. Here is the illustration. I can angle the chisel so that the edge cuts the wood, but my chisel is no longer flat reference.
View attachment 140342

You just tilt the chisel so that the sharp edge goes down the desired face. Not a problem at all.
If the chisel face was hollow then it could be difficult. If anything being convex will help.
Forget the "reference" concept. You are cutting to a line - an actual mark or a line of sight. You still have to do that even with a perfectly flat chisel. You could do this with a double rounded bevel carving chisel if you had to!
PS, if on the other hand you had a seriously bent hollow chisel face ( a very rare occurrence!) you could still cut straight by turning it to the bevel side.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've had hundreds of chisels at one time or another, I used to buy all the good ones I saw going for silly money. I've seen one in all that number that was bellied to the point of being unusable. I prefer mine flat and I can flatten them easily - on a disc on the lathe - but I wouldn't bother otherwise. If I were paying Lie Nielsen, Veritas etc. prices I would expect them to be flat, though.

 

[Jacob]

I've had hundreds of chisels at one time or another, I used to buy all the good ones I saw going for silly money. I've seen one in all that number that was bellied to the point of being unusable. I prefer mine flat and I can flatten them easily - on a disc on the lathe - but I wouldn't bother otherwise. If I were paying Lie Nielsen, Veritas etc. prices I would expect them to be flat, though.

Well yes fair enough, it's just that "flatness" isn't much of an issue or a game changer to get worried about, within reason.

 

[Jacob]

Having a flat chisel will dive beyond the line also if not tenting, call it what you want.
Often registration means little if the force of the waste takes preference.

This will give ye a right laugh, but is foolproof, provided stock is parallel
Foolish time wise.
I love these graphite sticks, great for transferring.
that being aluminium not great compared to cast iron,
but with some lateral force can make very noticeable spots to carve out,
regardless of chisel profile, although a hollow chisel would be very hungry and kinda inaccurate at this stage.
This makes more sense for toolmaking, rather than anything else, but there are some cases like through mortises and the likes where this maybe useful.

Just highlighting the benefits of the belly, as it would speed me up a bit.
Maybe someday I will try some.

View attachment 140343

What is "tenting"?
Not sure what your photo shows. Are you knocking the piece of ali through the mortice?

 

[Ttrees]

Presuming you wish me to explain rather than state for others,
as I know you've read Charlesworth's work.

May not be necessary with a bellied chisel,
but is likely the only way one will keep an edge on a "lesser" steel
which is lapped flat.
Basically being aware of undercutting, and understanding one will get more life out of a chisel by aiming out of the cut, or never vertically down whilst chopping,
making a pitched profile in the centre.

A two fold reason to do so, edge life to begin with, and when close to a line
for accuracy if not wanting to undercut for whatever reason.
(i.e mortise for a panel gauge, or other instance where one does not want an undercut/proud edges, say knocking a tight fitting tenon out the back side of a mortise, one does not want a proud edge to catch on things.


That kinda thing for me, but the technique is not restricted to only that
One can "tent" using a single slope regarding the short ends of tenon shoulders, paring down gradually to meet the already worked long shoulders on smaller work.

Loads of reasons which just goes without saying.
You could say something like the waste pushing the bevel side will likely have more influence than you can control, unless you've got a bellied chisel,
or have space to use just a small portion of the chisels width in order to overcome this.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Presuming you wish me to explain rather than state for others,
as I know you've read Charlesworth's work.

Not a lot. Just flipped through one I sold. Seemed to be a random collection of his magazine articles. Saw more of Dave C on this forum than anywhere else.

May not be necessary with a bellied chisel,
but is likely the only way one will keep an edge on a "lesser" steel
which is lapped flat.
Basically being aware of undercutting, and understanding one will get more life out of a chisel by aiming out of the cut, or never vertically down whilst chopping,
making a pitched profile in the centre.

A two fold reason to do so, edge life to begin with, and when close to a line
for accuracy if not wanting to undercut for whatever reason.
(i.e mortise for a panel gauge, or other instance where one does not want an undercut/proud edges, say knocking a tight fitting tenon out the back side of a mortise, one does not want a proud edge to catch on things.


That kinda thing for me, but the technique is not restricted to only that
One can "tent" using a single slope regarding the short ends of tenon shoulders, paring down gradually to meet the already worked long shoulders on smaller work.

Loads of reasons which just goes without saying.
You could say something like the waste pushing the bevel side will likely have more influence than you can control, unless you've got a bellied chisel,
or have space to use just a small portion of the chisels width in order to overcome this.

Tom

Hmm, sounds like some serious over-thinking going on here!
"Tenting" is just normal chisel work then - where you'd work from both sides to avoid breaking out on just one side.
I cut "vertically" when I'm doing the last cut down the face of a mortice, with an OBM. No problemo!

 

[Ttrees]

Maybe this will clear things up a bit
Concerning longevity of a cheapie chisel aiming out of the cut

But for accuracy sake on situation like these through pegged tenons one doesn't want to blow the back out of the timber whilst disassembling the joint.

Just commenting about the undercutting tendencies of a flat or concave chisel.
Kinda difficult to give you an example,
Had a folder disappear, but this might give a hint,
even though not as reliable as the above similar photo
one might glean some insight into not undercutting the centre of the joint.
The aluminium tool or whathaveyou will find high spots, as tenting is done beforehand, for a situation where one doesn't have a standard side mortise and
wants not undercutting.

The bellied chisel could speed this part up, and the flat chisel could be used for possibly finding a spot afterwards, if not going bananas with graphite.

I have reasons to chase better fitting components as I reclaim timber often, and can rip a piece without any gaps.
Just getting perfect results first, then speed things up a bit.
Something along the Klausz mantra, not that he'd approve my slow approach.

 

[Ttrees]

What is "tenting"?
Not sure what your photo shows. Are you knocking the piece of ali through the mortice?

Reliably finding high spots after tenting
Force is applied to the tool keeping it 90 degrees using a prepared length of timber.

Not reliably finding high spots with a similar setup, as force can not be applied
this way reliably, but still useful for finding a lump.

 

[Jacob]

Maybe this will clear things up a bit

Nope. Not sure what you are on about at all!
Looks like you cut this with a bandsaw. I would have cut out most of the middle piece with the bandsaw too and just cleaned up with a same width firmer chisel. Or bevel edge. "Bellied" or not!
I don't like the expression "bellied" as it's a gross exaggeration of what a slightly lengthways convex chisel face looks like, and implies something is very wrong when it fact it is just normal.

View attachment 140344

 

[Ttrees]

I don't like the expression "bellied" as it's a gross exaggeration of what a slightly lengthways convex chisel face looks like, and implies something is very wrong when it fact it is just normal.

It doesn't appear to act grossly exaggerated compared.
That's from someone who's never had a bellied chisel, but it seems a lot more controllable to me regarding heavy work and less likely to dull so fast because of it.
i.e having some steer ability.
Less tenting if you will, and finding high spots instead with a flat chisel!

I think both profiles would be useful to have.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

It doesn't appear to act grossly exaggerated compared.
That's from someone who's never had a bellied chisel, but it seems a lot more controllable to me regarding heavy work and less likely to dull so fast because of it.
i.e having some steer ability.
Less tenting if you will, and finding high spots instead with a flat chisel!

I think both profiles would be useful to have.

Tom

I see the point you are making but still seems like over thinking. In reality you can do the job with a dead flat or a slightly convex one - it makes hardly any difference. In fact you could do it with a very bent hollow chisel if that was all you had - you'd turn it bevel towards the workpiece instead.
"Bellied" is a non issue. Best to forget the word altogether!
Had a look at some of my mortice chisels - most are convex along the length to some extent. It won't make any difference to anything!

 

[Trafalgar]

I would like to pare the end of the mortice plumb, how would I do it, if the belly on the chisel pushes the edge away from the wall. I have nothing to register against, as my chisel is not flat, but it is a curve. Here is the illustration. I can angle the chisel so that the edge cuts the wood, but my chisel is no longer flat reference.
View attachment 140342

 

[Jacob]

Is that a question? See answer in previous post.
Basically you point the chisel to where you want it to cut, rather than missing it altogether by trying to use a curved chisel as a flat "reference" surface - it just wont work!
Simpler to forget "reference surfaces" altogether - it's an engineering concept and nothing to do with woodwork. what is a reference surface - Google Search
Though I suppose the floor (flat or not) could be a "reference surface" if you want to get chair legs the right length!