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Don't forget that we will need much more electricity if we:-

Increase AI and Cloud storage
Have 80% vehicles electric, lorries & buses will need significant amounts
Produce anything that requires heat to manufacture eg Pottery, metals

Gas gives more heat than per thermal unit than electricity so.....

And yes, Miliband, and in fact nearly ALL politicians have NO scientific training and very few civil servant have either.

Phil
 
Don't forget that we will need much more electricity if we:-

Increase AI and Cloud storage
Have 80% vehicles electric, lorries & buses will need significant amounts
Produce anything that requires heat to manufacture eg Pottery, metals

Gas gives more heat than per thermal unit than electricity so.....

And yes, Miliband, and in fact nearly ALL politicians have NO scientific training and very few civil servant have either.

Phil
Gas gives more heat per thermal unit than electricity?!!!
Surely thermal unit is a measure of heat?
 
I really only want to follow the money on this one.
Going for a net zero option is going to cost lots of money.
That money will only come from us.

It will go to building the vast infrastructure required to transmit the electricity from where its being inconveniently produced (out at sea), to where its needed, ie cities and industries.

The money will also go into the pockets of the wind farm barons who can now sell their product at an enormous mark up because the price of electricity is struck at the price asked by the most expensive producers, ie gas and nuclear, even if we only need them for 2 days a year.

Is the government going to admit to the public that our electricity bills will not come down because transitioning to net zero is worth all of us having to pay a lot more for our energy.
Good luck with that one.

We all want good schools, hospitals, roads etc but these things are only dependent on UK business generating enough wealth for the country.
That's a big problem for them when they have some of the highest energy costs in Europe.
Will the government explain that as well?
 
I really only want to follow the money on this one.
Going for a net zero option is going to cost lots of money.
That money will only come from us.

It will go to building the vast infrastructure required to transmit the electricity from where its being inconveniently produced (out at sea), to where its needed, ie cities and industries.

The money will also go into the pockets of the wind farm barons who can now sell their product at an enormous mark up because the price of electricity is struck at the price asked by the most expensive producers, ie gas and nuclear, even if we only need them for 2 days a year.

Is the government going to admit to the public that our electricity bills will not come down because transitioning to net zero is worth all of us having to pay a lot more for our energy.
Good luck with that one.

We all want good schools, hospitals, roads etc but these things are only dependent on UK business generating enough wealth for the country.
That's a big problem for them when they have some of the highest energy costs in Europe.
Will the government explain that as well?
Energy cost have been too low for too long. They will go up. There is no alternative. There will be big changes as we adjust. I reckon EVs and air flight will be off the agenda for starters.
A lot of people don't seem yet to have grasped what's going on. But fewer sceptics so that's good! Pity about the orange man but he won't be there for long.
 
I really only want to follow the money on this one.
Going for a net zero option is going to cost lots of money.
That money will only come from us.

It will go to building the vast infrastructure required to transmit the electricity from where its being inconveniently produced (out at sea), to where its needed, ie cities and industries.

The money will also go into the pockets of the wind farm barons who can now sell their product at an enormous mark up because the price of electricity is struck at the price asked by the most expensive producers, ie gas and nuclear, even if we only need them for 2 days a year.

Is the government going to admit to the public that our electricity bills will not come down because transitioning to net zero is worth all of us having to pay a lot more for our energy.
Good luck with that one.

We all want good schools, hospitals, roads etc but these things are only dependent on UK business generating enough wealth for the country.
That's a big problem for them when they have some of the highest energy costs in Europe.
Will the government explain that as well?

I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s easy or that there is a silver bullet answer.

What do you think the answer is as I’m pretty sure it’s not “drill baby drill”?
 
I really only want to follow the money on this one.
Going for a net zero option is going to cost lots of money.
That money will only come from us.

It will go to building the vast infrastructure required to transmit the electricity from where its being inconveniently produced (out at sea), to where its needed, ie cities and industries.

The money will also go into the pockets of the wind farm barons who can now sell their product at an enormous mark up because the price of electricity is struck at the price asked by the most expensive producers, ie gas and nuclear, even if we only need them for 2 days a year.

Is the government going to admit to the public that our electricity bills will not come down because transitioning to net zero is worth all of us having to pay a lot more for our energy.
Good luck with that one.

We all want good schools, hospitals, roads etc but these things are only dependent on UK business generating enough wealth for the country.
That's a big problem for them when they have some of the highest energy costs in Europe.
Will the government explain that as well?
No one will have any wealth, schools, hospitals or anything else if we humans go on wrecking the climate at the (accelerating still) pace we're going at. "Growth" of the traditional economic ilk is the main cause of the looming catastrophes (well beyond merely "looming" for the increasing numbers who have been burnt, blown and flooded out). Worst case but highly possible scenario is that this century (or even the next 25 years) will see the human population crash as billions die from weather and its effects on everything (especially "growth") as we return to rather more primitive conditions than those we enjoy now.

If you have capital, the best strategy is to become energy-generation self-sufficient as far as possible. Such a strategy will also add up, if enough of us follow it, in providing a far more resilient national energy infrastructure than do huge centralised and very expensive generation facilities, wasted in grid transmission losses and organised to profit a few very greedy people rather than the nation as a whole.

Perhaps we could all continue to burn coal, or oil. Perhaps we could cut all the forests down to burn & choke us, hoping that "someone else" grows some new ones. It might reduce the electricity or gas bill by 2p a therm. But just after "my lowest bill ever" the mother of all storms will blow the house down. The lucky ones will die in the flood.
 
What's the state of play with tidal generation? Lots of tidal energy around the UK, the Severn estuary has been talked about in the past, no idea where it stands these days. Seems a bit of a gift.
Yes, the Severn Estuary has the 2nd highest tidal range in the world (highest in Newfoundland) and it was much talked about 50 years ago. I know because i was one of the talkers in the then CEGB. It stands now as it stood all those years ago - uneconomic. The engineering challenges and associated costs are just too great as compared with the other green energy options we have available to us today.
I believe there are 2 commercially sized tidal power stations, one in France and the other in Canada but their output is not convincing, averaging about 60MW which not significant in the broad scheme of things. Their source of energy is reliable but not constant (in/out, neap/spring) and this where the Severn scheme was thought to be advantageous because the design incorporated a number of holding ponds which would regulate the flow of water through the turbines. Maggie T put paid to all that and I moved on to nuclear projects.
But at some point we will learn the true impact of wind turbines, we know you cannot get something for nothing. With energy you cannot create or destroy it so it just comes down to a process of exchange or conversion. Wind is the result of having two different pressure zones and we stick windturbines in the way, you do not get a mega watt of energy for nothing, this has been extracted from the wind and converted to electricity but the wind has lost that energy so at what point do we start to see any impact on global weather patterns ?

You're almost right that energy cannot be created or destroyed, however that chap who gave us the famous equation E=MC² told us how much energy we can release from matter. However, you ask what happens after we have extracted kinetic energy from the wind. Well it's firstly converted to rotational energy, then into electrical energy. We then use it to power things by various means but in the end it all ends up as heat returned to the environment from whence it came. So there is no net climatic advantage in extracting power from wind.
Brian
 
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What's so wrong with having the ambition to decarbonise and remove dependency on other countries? It might not be achievable in our lifetimes but if you don't set out the direction of travel nothing will change.

We can't treat cancer, so no point trying.

We can't map the human genome so no point trying.

Etc.

Wanting to achieve something is the first step. Do we only respect politicians who say they will do the easy stuff, or do we want leaders who try ?
We need leaders first who actually understand things. Milliband going for an unproven method of carbon capture....beggars belief
 
....

A rough idea is that a 3.5 mW windturbine is around £3 million so for your 34 billion you get more than 11,000 windturbines producing upto 40 gW total.

...When the wind blows.

And when it doesn't ? I appreciate that you have an agenda living where you do againat nuclear but .....
 
What's so wrong with having the ambition to decarbonise and remove dependency on other countries? It might not be achievable in our lifetimes but if you don't set out the direction of travel nothing will change.

We can't treat cancer, so no point trying.

We can't map the human genome so no point trying.

Etc.

Wanting to achieve something is the first step. Do we only respect politicians who say they will do the easy stuff, or do we want leaders who try ?
True. So what would you suggest `?
 
There is a generally accepted method to analyse the comparative costs of different fuels and technologies - Levellised cost of energy

This estimates the cost per megawatt hour over the expected life of the plant. In summary wind and solar are currently estimated at less than half the cost of gas.

The analysis relies heavily on estimates - prices (particularly gas), future cost of capital, construction costs etc. I would personally regard the conclusions as indicators rather than precision outputs - but the clear message is that wind and solar are a far better bet than gas.

The big issue is the profile of cash flows. Gas requires relatively low initial investment but high operating costs (fuel). Green energy needs a far higher initial investment but future running costs are limited to repairs and maintenance only. Effective regulation is required (I have limited confidence).
 
The money will also go into the pockets of the wind farm barons who can now sell their product at an enormous mark up because the price of electricity is struck at the price asked by the most expensive producers, ie gas and nuclear, even if we only need them for 2 days a year.
Why would you assume the regulatory environment will remain unchanged - any competent government (let's hope one exists) should change the rules to reflect a changed reality.
Is the government going to admit to the public that our electricity bills will not come down because transitioning to net zero is worth all of us having to pay a lot more for our energy.
Good luck with that one.
Leaving aside any environmental arguments, if we don't change we will for ever be vulnerable to international pressures - security of supply and energy market prices. Doing nothing means things stay the same!!
We all want good schools, hospitals, roads etc but these things are only dependent on UK business generating enough wealth for the country.
That's a big problem for them when they have some of the highest energy costs in Europe.
Will the government explain that as well?
We have energy costs around the equal of the EU average. France decided on a nuclear strategy, Scandinavia has hydro, Iceland has thermal, Spain has sunshine. Our biggest natural resource is wind, yet you seem to think it wrong to exploit it.

If your strategic horizon is short term (less than 5 years?) there could be an argument for doing nothing. IMHO we should be planning for the next 30-50 years (at least) which broadly reflects the lifetime of the infrastructure investment necessary.
 
@Dermot McArdle

You start the post with a great deal of opinion and ask for comment on it.
My first comment is "what is your background and context ?".
You clearly have a agenda - let's just say point of view - so I'm curious as to where you acquired it.

I do suggest you read up on how the electricity market actually works because I don't think it works the way you seem to think it does.
This might be a place to start :
https://www.neso.energy/what-we-do/energy-markets/electricity-markets-explained

You don't seem enamoured of windmills so to add insult to injury, consider this : There is a lot of stuff talked about wind power as being free. Of course it isn't. It has a big capital cost, a lower running cost and repair and maintenance cost that most of us don't have a handle on because a lot of wind turbines are still within the term of their "supply and maintenance" contracts. A bit like a car, the sting may come when your wind turbine needs repairs after the initial maintenance contract has run out.
But it's going to happen regardless. Good luck :)
 
Anybody who has a variable tariff, such as Octopus Agile, will be aware of how vulnerable the UK electricity supply is to varying factors. Agile prices to consumers are a function of wholesale prices and these are a function of the balancing market, all changing every thirty minutes. When the wind blows, and the harder it blows, for a relatively constant demand, Agile pricing can become virtually zero and, sometimes, negative. The same applies for solar, although less obvious as we have much less capacity due to our climate. Agile users, myself included, have seen what happens to their tariff when wind and solar production becomes very low - energy needs to be procured from other sources, generally fossil, nuclear or import - and the wholesale prices goes stratospheric (thankfully, capped on Agile at just short of £1 /KWh).

Agile demonstrates that we should not maintain reliance upon fossil fuels (and T+C's of supply state the algorithm used to set the price vs wholesale market price) as it is hugely expensive to the consumer irrespective of the harm to the environment. We also need to think carefully about the increases in demand for electricity which will come from a move away from gas and oil boilers to heat pumps and from ICE to BEV. We have to get that electricity from somewhere and even with load shifted storage, it still has to be produced for us to consume.

As I see it, we need to reduce our reliance upon fossil fuels and we need to do it quickly - both for security and for consumer cost. Personally, I don't have an issue with on shore wind farms or solar, if done sympathetically. We have nine large wind turbines less than two miles away from where we live. I admit that there are trees between them and us but we don't suffer from turbine noise, they don't look unsightly, to my eyes anyway, and nobody suffers from massive house price deflation as a result of them. We also have several solar farms close by. Again, done properly, they are a thing of comparative beauty and far more appealing than a large fossil fuel power station, for instance.

The idea of distributed power sources so as to minimise the need for addition grid infrastructure has to be a good one. Using BEV's as well as virtual power plants has to be a good way to go , as is more localised power generation through things like wind and solar. But we need to invest heavily in other forms of energy generation and I would much rather see tax money spent on innovative research which ultimately turns into viable power generators than some of the other hair brain sink holes where our tax money sometimes seems to go in recent times. I wish I could offer viable alternatives myself, but I cannot - but I think we should welcome investment as well as blue sky thinking, ideally UK sourced, to reduce UK reliance upon fossil fuels.
 
What's so wrong with having the ambition to decarbonise and remove dependency on other countries? It might not be achievable in our lifetimes but if you don't set out the direction of travel nothing will change.

We can't treat cancer, so no point trying.

We can't map the human genome so no point trying.

Etc.

Wanting to achieve something is the first step. Do we only respect politicians who say they will do the easy stuff, or do we want leaders who try ?
I tend to agree. The British trend over the last 40 years, or so, has been towards laziness. We lost the leading edge on all fronts. It could be because other countries caught up, but I doubt that.

Now, we know that it would be better for us to generate and use our own energy and even make enough to sell abroad. We know that nuclear is best option for providing a constant base-load i.e. what the country needs 24/7. And we know that wind and solar, and maybe tidal, is good when the conditions allow and better if storing energy becomes more effective with less side-effects to the planet. Indeed, in Scotland and Wales ther may even be more oppotunities for hydo-electric generation, as they do, on a small scale, in Snowdonia.

There was an item on the news a while back demonstrating the use of flywheels to store energy. Crank them up during off-peak times and use them to generate energy during peak times.

Whatever we do, we need to get moving. The world is turning into a unreliable, less stable planet, in more ways than one and we need to be as self-suffiient as we can.

I wonder at the future possibility of dumping our nuclear waste into the Sun. That seems a more credible method with all the space interest at the moment.
 
......


You're almost right that energy cannot be created or destroyed, however that chap who gave us the famous equation E=MC² told us how much energy we can release from matter. However, you ask what happens after we have extracted kinetic energy from the wind. Well it's firstly converted to rotational energy, then into electrical energy. We then use it to power things by various means but in the end it all ends up as heat returned to the environment from whence it came. So there is no net climatic advantage in extracting power from wind.
Brian
Did you mean "no net climatic disadvantage"?
Wind power means no CO2 production so there is potentially a massive climate change advantage over fossil fuel use. That's the whole point.
See Terry's post above no18
 
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