Tweaking Your Tenons

[Alf]

Like mentioned, the router plane [hey, it's gotta be good because two Mikes suggested it <g>] really does make accurate work of it.

Humph. An Alf mentioned it first but no-one noticed. [-( :lol:

 

[MikeW]

:lol: yeah but you didn't exactly sound very enthuistic about it by calling it a dodge, now did you :lol:

What I really like is this definition...

To evade (an obligation, for example) by cunning, trickery, or deceit: kept dodging the reporter's questions.

:roll:

Gott a go before I get hung...Mikey

 

[ByronBlack]

Alf - I did notice your suggestion on the router plane - just couldn't visualise how to actually use it correctly without it tipping off.

So, I've been practising cutting M&T's today, my initial feelings are 'i'm not going to be able to do 30 of these' and 'oh my word, my tenon shoulders are rubbish'

I must have cut about 10 tenons, and although I can eventually get a decent tenon cut, the shoulders are never 90 degrees or parallel - any tips on this? I'm currently using a dozuki to cut the shoulders, and no matter how much I practice and try and keep the saw-kerf at 90 the end result is always off.

 

[engineer one]

byron, why not use a block to keep things square to start with??? :twisted:

clamp a square bit of wood where the shoulder is and rest the saw alongside it, often works if you let the saw do the work, ie don't try to saw, let the teeth work on their own.

paul :wink:

 

[Alf]

:lol: yeah but you didn't exactly sound very enthuistic about it by calling it a dodge, now did you :lol:

There's a good reason for that - I'm not very enthusiastic about it! :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

:lol: yeah but you didn't exactly sound very enthuiastic about it by calling it a dodge, now did you :lol:

There's a good reason for that - I'm not very enthusiastic about it! :lol:

Cheers, Alf

Hey, would someone fix my keyboard so I would stop dropping letters?

Well, as I use rasps and files, it sorta speaks to my predisposition. Teaching classes on hand tool methods has encouraged me to being open to other methods.

So I plug those which I have found to be useful. And a router plane was a boon when I needed to make some 32 half-laps in Lyptus...but I don't use it for tenons, though it does work great. Just not fast enough for me. And I do own a couple rasps and files.

Take care, Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Alf - I did notice your suggestion on the router plane - just couldn't visualise how to actually use it correctly without it tipping off.

So, I've been practising cutting M&T's today, my initial feelings are 'i'm not going to be able to do 30 of these' and 'oh my word, my tenon shoulders are rubbish'

I must have cut about 10 tenons, and although I can eventually get a decent tenon cut, the shoulders are never 90 degrees or parallel - any tips on this? I'm currently using a dozuki to cut the shoulders, and no matter how much I practice and try and keep the saw-kerf at 90 the end result is always off.

First off Byron, dont panic and dont be discouraged, acuracy doesnt come overnight, we are all constantly aiming to improve I think no matter how long we've been at it. I'd say just relax while sawing, dont try too hard, and keep on practising. As Paul sudgested why not try a block type jig to start with to get the feel of a true plumb vertical cut, so you can adjust your stance to suit (like a golfer does) and as Paul also wisely noted, let the saw do the work, are you trying to force the cut especially with one of those thin jap blade's?? Are you holding the tennoned components vertically in a solid vice? Are you sighting along the cutting line? I cut across the top first then bring it down towards me at a 45 degree angle. Then turn the component round 180 degres and come down to 45 degrees the other side. Then square down to the shoulder line. I find it helps to score the shoulder line with a knife and carve out a vee shaped groove, along the shoulder the cut is vertical. The saw drops in and the carved line acts as a guide, you get a much cleaner crisper cross cut shoulder. What metod are you using to mark out your M&T's? Are you precise and consistent on that (meaning-are you working conasistently from clearly defined face side/face edge's, and is your stock acurately squared up??) Also I'd say look closely at what you did already, not just a cursory glance. Examine the cut tennons carefully with a loupe type eye piece. If theres a consistent fault, try to analyse whats causing it. EG If theres a recurring twist on the cheek's perhaps try altering your stance a little to acomodate it etc.

Dont give up, good luck with the greenhouse
Cheers Mr S

 

[Anonymous]

Hmm, a dozuki? Not sure what it is but I can't help thinking that a tenon saw might be better for cutting tenons. Dare I ask; what is a dozuki supposed to do any better than a tenon saw?

cheers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

Grimsdale - A Dozuki:

Cuts on the pull stroke, has a very thin kerf and fine cutting teeth, it's japanese.

I DO cut the tenon with a tenon-saw, in fact a rather nice Mitchell sharpened and set by our very own ALF - and it cuts the tenon great. I'm using the Dozuki to cut the SHOULDERS as the tenon saw is a little harder to use across the grain. It's getting the shoulders at 90 degree to the tenon cheek that is the problem.

Mr Spanton

I've been using virtually the same technique as you described which is outlined in the Collins Encylopedia which i'm using as a guide. I do all the marking out on face edges and I cut the tenon in the manner you suggest. It's not really cutting the tenon that i'm having difficutly with, well not now anyway, I seem to be improving that part quite quickly, it's the shoulder issue.. but i'll try with the guide block and perservere and see what I can make of it.

I'm very much inclined to master this and make the greenhouse project using hand-tools, but with time not on my side it does feel like quite a steep learning curve. But armed with all the suggestions I'll spend another day tomorrow practising.

 

[engineer one]

byron, i thought it might be the shoulders'

why not mark the shoulder with a square and a knife, going as deep as
possible, then run the dozuki at almost horizontal through the grooves
very gently until you get it the depth of the teeth. then put a block against it, and make sure the blade rubs the block that will keep the saw vertical i think. maybe a piece of angle iron.

paul :wink:

 

[ByronBlack]

Paul - I think that definitly will help! And I will be trying that tomorrow.

Here are some pics of my first couple of practice runs:

Marking up:

Chopping out the mortise (Jap Chisel)

Ready to turn over and do other side (through tenon)

All done on this side:

Scooping out waste:

Completed Mortise:

First Sawing the tenon cheeks:

Then the troublesome shoulders:

Tenon before clean up:

Finished joint. I had to bang it in with a mallet - not sure how tight these should be?

I know most of the images are pretty boring, but thought i'd post them in case I was doing anything obscenely wrong, which from the previous posts it doesn't seem I am, just lack of practice.

 

[Anonymous]

Grimsdale - A Dozuki: Cuts on the pull stroke, has a very thin kerf and fine cutting teeth, it's japanese.
snip

Black - I'd dump the dozuki if I were you and do the shoulders with a tenon saw, you will find it easier.
And use a pencil rather than a knife. Knife is really for precise saw cuts only, not for general marking cos you can't get rid of the marks easily.
Also helps if you do the tenons over long and then plane them back after glue is dry. Neater finish - also helps with dry runs - you can hammer the tenon back out on the waste which you will remove afterwards, if you see what I mean.

cheers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

Grimsdale - A Dozuki: Cuts on the pull stroke, has a very thin kerf and fine cutting teeth, it's japanese.
snip

Black - I'd dump the dozuki if I were you and do the shoulders with a tenon saw, you will find it easier.

cheers
Jacob

Jacob, but thats the thing. I don't find it easier with the tenon saw. Although it cuts great going down the grain, I find it very difficult using it to cut across the grain without a bit of ripping. The dozuki cuts very well across the grain and requires very little pressure to get it started, but i'm thinking the thin blade might be slightly responsible for angled shoulders.

 

[engineer one]

byron looking at your pictures, it is obvious that somehow you are working the saw, not letting it work.

the "perfect angle" for a japanese saw is supposed to be about 5 degrees off vertical, as i understand it, so i think you are not cutting the whole shoulder quickly enough if you see what i mean. that is why i think the marking and then a block would work well to start with.

however as i said before check out the latest "woodworking magazine" it is the same stable as popular woodworking.
www.woodworking-magazine.com might help if you can't buy it locally.

paul :wink:

 

[MikeW]

I would agree with Paul...looks like you may be trying to steer the saw or force it to cut.

With a pull saw, I start on the near side and as the kerf is starting, slowly lower the far end watching that I am coming down on the line...but also watching that I am following the layout line nearest me. Then I attempt to take just a few last strokes when the near side has reached near its limit and lowering the far side down a bit more. More a slight raising up at the handle end.

Pull saws I find difficult to use to ensure shoulders are an even depth across the tenon. I think that is because of the toe being taller than the handle end. Really just a matter of getting use to it I suppose.

But for the shoulders to be perpendicular to the face, the big deal is watching the near line as you are sawing and sawing down it. As long as you do not twist the saw, the shoulder should be cut straight down. You may want to clean up the shoulders with either a shoulder plane or a chisel [which is what I use because I typically undercut the shoulders a smidge].

It is all practice. And I don't want this to sound patronizing, but not only are your mortises looking good, but the tenons don't look bad either.

If you end up going for a western style tenon saw for the shoulders, consider a carcass saw. Cross cut. Open handle. I think you would find it easier than switching between pull-push saws. Of course, the other option is a non-backed pull saw for cutting the cheeks.

Take care, Mike

 

[ByronBlack]

Mike

Thanks for the tips regarding the sawing technique, i'll give that a go. I was starting the cut on the far side, and then bringing the blade level and sawing to the cheek line, but i'll try it your way and see how that goes.

Also, thanks for the tips on the type of saw - I did think about the possibility that using two different type of saws may contribute to the learning curve, so i'll keep an eye for a saw that you mention.

Other than your own saws, do you have a link to any types that I should keep an eye for?

Also, thanks for the kind commetns, they aren't patronizing at all as these are some of the first M&T's i've done by hand. I was surprised how good the japanese chisel was - very nice to use, although going through the full 44mm was quite hardwork.

 

[MikeW]

Hi BB,

Nothing magical about saws. I personally like a saw for cutting shoulders that is 9" to 10" in blade length and has an open handle. Filed cross cut--but any saw can be revamped to a cross cut if you find a good one at a boot sale.

For new, either the LN or Adria carcass saws will do well. But I suspect there are other decent saws there which would do well for less cost. I think Pax has their 1776 model for less, at least it is here. Don't know if they offer it in a cross cut configuration though.

Main thing for me is height. I personally don't like sawing shoulders using a saw with too much usable cutting depth nor too long. So my favorite vintage one I use most often is a 10" with about 1 3/4" usable cutting depth. A couple have less, one or two more have about 2". I feel confident in any of them.

The starting closest to you thing with the pull saw is to easily see you are bringing the cut down perpendicular. Both aspects--down and across--need to be watched at the same time. That's where practice comes in.

So grab a half dozen pieces of scrap and I would reckon that within an hour you'll wonder where the problem was. You'll get it just fine using what you have.

Take care, Mike

 

[underused]

Hi,

I find it easier to control the cut of the Japanese saws by "working over the cut"
Ive been told that the Japanese saw wasnt designed to be used at bench height, they are easier to use accurately by leaning over the cut.
Japanese work much lower than us westerners, when using the pull saw.
It makes the pulling action much more controlled.
Try it, might work for you too

 

[Paul Kierstead]

For new, either the LN or Adria carcass saws will do well. But I suspect there are other decent saws there which would do well for less cost. I think Pax has their 1776 model for less, at least it is here. Don't know if they offer it in a cross cut configuration though.

It has been my experience the some guy named Wenzloff makes a bang-up saw as well, and the price is reasonable for a premium saw.

 

[bugbear]

Paul - I think that definitly will help! And I will be trying that tomorrow.

Here are some pics of my first couple of practice runs:

Chopping out the mortise (Jap Chisel)

Here's some recommendations for workholding when mortise cutting (as usual, I didn't originate these - I read them in a book or two).

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour. ... rtice_hold

BugBear