Tweaking Your Tenons

[Alf]

BB, seems to me you're going in the right direction and I agree with Mike - them joints don't look so bad. So first advice is be encouraged by your efforts thus far. Second thought is total agreement to ditch the Japanese saw. I know, I know; there are dozens of happy dozuki users who'll rush with the tar and feathers, but I reckon they're one of those things you tend either to get along with - or you don't. Evidentally you're doing okay with the Western back saw, so switching to a Western saw for the crosscuts would probably suit you better anyway. And as Mike points out, switching from push to pull all the time does complicate matters more than somewhat. 'Course Mike then cunningly goes on to describe his favourite saw for the task which you'll have incredible difficulty finding in anything but new ](*,) - better sign up to his waiting list PDQ. :wink:

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Glad the Mitchell's providing good service.

 

[Anonymous]

snip

Here's some recommendations for workholding when mortise cutting (as usual, I didn't originate these - I read them in a book or two).

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour. ... rtice_hold

BugBear

I agree with the advice on the site above about holding the workpiece - vice no good, horizontally on the bench top better.
What I do myself is not to hold it at all but to lay the workpiece (or 4 pieces side by side) across 2 bench hooks. The mortice is on the bench hook at the end of the bench so you can look at it from the side and from the end.
The point about the bench hooks is that this lifts the stuff off the bench so any chippings which fall won't get squashed into the under surface.
You don't need to lever out the waste on a through tenon this is a waste of time and tends to round over the ends of the mortice if you aren't careful - it falls out as it gets compressed and as you work from both sides. Any that's left gets pushed out when you do a trial fit.
A useful thing is to have a loose tenon piece of hardwood of the right size which you can hammer (mallet) through the mortice to remove waste and to flatten the sides a bit.
Gotta be good this greenhouse with all the advice you are getting!

cheers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

Jacob - great advice about the waste issue - I did have some difficulty removing the waste as like you said, I did round over one of the edges, you can see that in one of my photo's.

With regards holding the workpiece to the workbench, I like the idea of two bench hooks, i'll have to try that out. What you can't really see in the photo, is a clamp holding the piece to a sacrficial base on top of the workbench, so it's quite sturdy, but obviously the waste has nowhere to go until I lift it up and remove it etc..

Alf - seems then, the general consensus is too ditch the dozuki, that'll be quite difficult as do like the little pippers and have good success with them in dovetails in the past, but your right, two-ing fro-ing with different styles of saw can't help really.. so, looks like me and ebay will be getting aquatinted again

Jacob, I hope your right about the greenhouse, this is some excellent advice and I just got to hope that the project reflects that!

 

[johnnyb]

to quote jim kingshot on cutting dovetails. he basically put them straight up in the vice instead of angling them both ways inline with the dove tail pin. he said if you cant saw to a line you should be practicing sawing not cutting dovetails!!! if you continue cutting tenons on this project and others suddenly you will click and can do them rapidly time after time. your tools seem well up to the job. a small power router used in a similar way to the hand router described earlier can be a way to go. but on a greenhouse i would go for the line every time and avoid any trimming as much as poss. treat it as a learning exercise and relax. try not to over fuss on any specific joints and accept any mistakes. trimming tenons cheeks with a shoulder is not entirely satisfactory but can help on shoulders.

 

[bugbear]

What I do myself is not to hold it at all but to lay the workpiece (or 4 pieces side by side) across 2 bench hooks. The mortice is on the bench hook at the end of the bench so you can look at it from the side and from the end.

What stops everything bouncing halfway across the workshop at the first stroke of the mallet?

BugBear

 

[Nick W]

Although it cuts great going down the grain, I find it very difficult using it to cut across the grain without a bit of ripping.

Sounds like you've got a rip saw but need a cross cut saw too. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

What I do myself is not to hold it at all but to lay the workpiece (or 4 pieces side by side) across 2 bench hooks. The mortice is on the bench hook at the end of the bench so you can look at it from the side and from the end.

What stops everything bouncing halfway across the workshop at the first stroke of the mallet?

BugBear

The bit with the mortice is firmly sitting on the bench hook so can't go anywhere. Needs nice solid bench hooks; 1 1/2" beech say 4x10", and a solid bench.
And you are holding firmly on to the chisel after whacking it in - it doesn't bounce back.
Your next question will be; why don't the chippings get caught between bench hook and the under-surface of the workpiece?
Answer is; you sweep them off with your hand if necessary, and when turning from one side to the other you tap the end of the workpiece quickly on to the bench to encourage chippings to fall out; but not on to the bench hook.
Prob with any sort of clamping is that the heavy malletting involved is likely to leave marks wherever the clamps are - and also being loose means you can waft away the chippings easily.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Anonymous]

And your next question might be - how to extract the chisel after each stroke if things aren't held down?
Answer here is in the very wonderful detailed design of a proper mortice chisel - i.e. the tapered cross section. You merely lever the chisel slightly back or forward and it is loose. So easy you hardly notice. In the process you are also breaking off chippings from the sides. If it is a bit tight you hold down the workpiece with the mallet.
Parallel sided "mortice" chisels are no good at all - for mortices at any rate.

cheers
Jacob

 

[bugbear]

What I do myself is not to hold it at all but to lay the workpiece (or 4 pieces side by side) across 2 bench hooks. The mortice is on the bench hook at the end of the bench so you can look at it from the side and from the end.

What stops everything bouncing halfway across the workshop at the first stroke of the mallet?

BugBear

The bit with the mortice is firmly sitting on the bench hook so can't go anywhere.

What about the other 3 pieces, in your "four pieces side by side"?

Ah. I've just (edit...) rememembed something that would be a major factor. How big are the pieces being mortised in your workshop?

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

What I do myself is not to hold it at all but to lay the workpiece (or 4 pieces side by side) across 2 bench hooks. The mortice is on the bench hook at the end of the bench so you can look at it from the side and from the end.

What stops everything bouncing halfway across the workshop at the first stroke of the mallet?

BugBear

The bit with the mortice is firmly sitting on the bench hook so can't go anywhere.

What about the other 3 pieces, in your "four pieces side by side"?

Ah. I've just (edit...) rememembed something that would be a major factor. How big are the pieces being mortised in your workshop?

BugBear

Well they just sit there and you go from one to the other. That'd be say 4 window stiles about 2x2". A door stile say 5x2" you'd do one at a time.
Anymore questions M'lud or can I go now?
I do them with a machine nowadays but I did do a lot by hand when I started off and still have a go by hand now and then.

cheers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

Jacob - how long would you say it takes to cut a through mortise by hand on 2x2 stock? It's taking me about 15mins so far - feel like an eternity!

Anyways, i've been practising some more this morning with another dozen or so joints, here's one of the better ones:

Cutting tenon:

Seem to be able to follow the line better:

Shoulder now cut - almost at 90 this time, much better than before:

My method of holding the stock for the mortise:

Mortise and tenon fitted together:

Rear view of the through joint - still a little ropey though:

I must say, all the advice has been excellent, and I think with a fair bit more practice I should master the tenon cut! The mortise apart from taking a while doesn't seem to be too much of a problem which is a bonus!

 

[MikeW]

Those are joints to be proud of, BB =D>

And do realize that in some ways Meranti is more difficult than a closed grain wood. So I think they're done superbly!

You'll get faster with time. Don't focus on getting faster per se, though. It will simply come as you do more of them.

Take care, Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Jacob - how long would you say it takes to cut a through mortise by hand on 2x2 stock? It's taking me about 15mins so far - feel like an eternity!
snip

Never timed it. 15 mins sounds long. I'll do a timed one when I have a mo.

cheers
Jacob

 

[bugbear]

Well they just sit there and you go from one to the other. That'd be say 4 window stiles about 2x2". A door stile say 5x2" you'd do one at a time.

Ah - so quite big pieces of timber (compared to small cabinet work); clamping (and the bench) become more of an issue when the work pieces don't have so much intertia

BugBear

 

[Alf]

Splendid stuff, BB =D> I've seen much worse than that - mainly on the end of my chisel... #-o :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Hello again Byron, nice photo sequence thanks for showing them.
One thought, where you clamp'd your timber for chopping is the bench underneath well solid or do you get a bit of flexing when the mallet strikes the chisle? If its a bit on the flimsey side it means some of the energy is being wasted bending the bench instead of removalling chip's. I put a 6x4 on edge along the front of my bench and 2 massive angl'd braces for this very reason, its rock solid even if I chop out 1 inch mortices.
Just another thought, perhaps other folks might know more about it, aparently they used to use a low bench (morticing stool) to support timber for to be mortic'd. Theres a picture in George Ellis's book. The timber is held with the joiner sitting on it IIRC, not unlike a jap carpenter. If your bench is a bit flimsy and its not easy or pracical to modify it, perhaps a motrice stool could be a solution?
Cheers Mr S

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi Guy's/Gals

Thanks for all the kind words - your advice definitly made a difference, just need to keep practising now, it's funny, now that the shoulder cut is pretty much good now, the cheek cuts i'm now finding a little more difficult, maybe my brain has chucked one bit out so it can fit a new bit in

Ohwell, either way it's been good to finally do some woodworking as opposed to construction.

Mr Spanton. I think you have a good point about the re-inforcement. My worktop is made up of an 18mm dining table top and a 12mm ply on top of that, undenearth it's suppored by a regular 2x4 frame so i'm quite sure there is a fair bit of energy lost so i'll do the modification you mention as i've plenty of scrap left over from the workshop build!

 

[woodbloke]

The way I tweak my tenons is to use the router table and large 25mm end mill cutter. If you have a router set up that can be adjusted thru' the top of the table, minute passes can be made to get tenons that fit exactly, as shown below:

Rob

 

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Byron,

Just wanted to add my congratulations to the others'. A well-done M&T joint, right off the saw and chisel, is a very fine accomplishment indeed. Tougher challenge in my opinion than dovetails, for example. You should be sleeping well this evening, having reached this milestone.

Wiley

 

[Colin C]

Hi BB

=D> Well done that man as it has been said before you have done a good job there