Tools for Dovetails

[wizer]

No you are completely missing the point. I'm not saying it's wrong to 'sort out' old tools. But not everyone want to do that Jacob. Some of us want nice tools out of the box. It's the fact that you find people buying expensive tools so unusual. Like it's the most bizarre thing you've ever heard. No one here is saying that old tools are not good, but the work involved in 'sorting them out' is no to some people's taste.

 

[mr grimsdale]

No you are completely missing the point. I'm not saying it's wrong to 'sort out' old tools. But not everyone want to do that Jacob. Some of us want nice tools out of the box. It's the fact that you find people buying expensive tools so unusual. Like it's the most bizarre thing you've ever heard.

I don't say that at all, I just talk about my alternative view. It's not exactly a radical idea, the web and the literature is full of old tool stuff.

No one here is saying that old tools are not good, but the work involved in 'sorting them out' is no to some people's taste.

They all need sorting out sooner or later!

 

[wizer]

No you are completely missing the point. I'm not saying it's wrong to 'sort out' old tools. But not everyone want to do that Jacob. Some of us want nice tools out of the box. It's the fact that you find people buying expensive tools so unusual. Like it's the most bizarre thing you've ever heard.

I don't say that at all, I just talk about my alternative view. It's not exactly a radical idea, the web and the literature is full of old tool stuff.

 

[Chems]

What grumpy old timers like lurker and grimsdale will never get is that some of us like having superior tools that look nice and are well made. Bleating ad nauseum about what we need and what we want is really rather boring. Like I said, we all know dovetails can be cut with a bread knife and a pick axe, but there's nothing wrong in having luxury tools. No matter how you drone on about it, you're never going to persuade us to stop buying exactly what we want to buy. :roll:

To true! That bit about the bread knife really made me chuckle.


I've done both routes, cheap and expensive, you can get good results with cheap tools, but the process will be fustrating and annoying, with good tools it will be enjoyable (why I do woodworking) and the resulting work will be of a higher quality.

But there is a line, does the Vertias wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70.

There are levels, my old manky focus chisels will cut nicely once sharpened, but they loose there edge very quickly and never get as sharp as some of the other steel I have, so in the process more time is spent sharpneing not doing and the resultant cut isn't as good.

 

[mr grimsdale]

It's not about 'cheap' tools as such.
I've bought cheap tools - these axminster chisels . The steel was perfectly OK and the faces were flat (slightly hollow i.e. perfect), but otherwise they were just too crudely shaped. I wouldn't recommend them to anybody.
I bought a Draper DT saw just on the offchance it was usable - but it wasn't.
I've binned all sorts of rubbish over the years

But I've got Spear & Jackson DT saws, Footprint and Stanley 5001 chisels, Record, Marples, old Ibbotson, Sorby, Sanderson & Kaiser, saws, planes, all sorts etc which are generally top class. There is no struggle against adversity in using them, they are OK.

does the Veritas wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70.

Do either of them do any better than the old pattern? I don't think so - and I have used a selection over the years.

 

[WoodAddict]

I was watching this yesterday on youtube. looks a nice way of doing it by hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp_aW0rO2uk

Paul

 

[wizer]

I've binned all sorts of rubbish over the years

](*,)

 

[dannykaye]

don't know if DC has joined in, or indeed changed his mind but he used to recommend the Sun Child saw from Craftsmans Choice, around £30 a set of 2 cherries chisels and an eclipse coping saw, less than £100ish - sounds like a good deal to me

 

[dannykaye]

But there is a line, does the Vertias wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70.
.

and both are lot less fun than the ones I made myself out of the scrap box...

 

[jimi43]

I like the idea of making tools. I think there is a huge amount of satisfaction when you are using something you made yourself to create something else.

It was the saw making thread that got me interested in the geometry and construction of a good saw for frets and other delicate work. The type of kerfing...the TPI...the angle of sharpening...all that stuff to me is fun!

All that being said...I think if someone gave me a fine set of chisels or a nice new saw I would grab it with open arms...I love the smell of new tools...

The other night I got a small...I guess it was a fret saw (in the guitar sense)...possibly a "Gentlemen's Saw"...anyway about 15 tpi and 5" steel with boxwood handle....which I decided to fettle..there being nothing to lose! Just a needle file...a small hammer...an anvil and one evening watching "Road Wars" with the dog...resulted in a fine saw that cuts beautifully...I am off to try dovetails with it tomorrow....

Jim

 

[Chems]

does the Veritas wheel gauge for £28 do any better job that the Lie Nielsen version which is £70.

Do either of them do any better than the old pattern? I don't think so - and I have used a selection over the years.

Yes, the vertias and lie nielsen slice the grain, the draper just tears it. That was an easy one. I shan't be checking back now as it seems a bit trollish.

 

[trousers]

Yes, the vertias and lie nielsen slice the grain, the draper just tears it. That was an easy one. I shan't be checking back now as it seems a bit trollish.

Chems
Just explain to me and the forum why you added the last sentance to your post?
You stated your opinion on the marking guages, so what is the rest about :?:

 

[mr grimsdale]

One reason I chip in on these threads is just a reaction against the sheer boredom of hearing for the hundreth time "buy LV, LN, Kell, titemark, torsharp, workmek, Dozitwat, yah mahverlous wonderful and similar total bollox".
You are having your plonkers pulled by tool sellers and that's all there is to it! Big yawn, change the record?
Whats pissing me off even more though is that the excellent little Footprint DT saw I spotted on ebay has gone! Could be the last one ever and the end of civilisation as we know it, but I've got too many already (other makes).

Local shop has Jamesons cheaper than Bells so it's not all bad news!

PS

Yes, the vertias and lie nielsen slice the grain, the draper just tears it. .

You just aren't doing it right. It's not that difficult you really should try harder. Give it ten minutes and you will get the hang of it I'm sure.

 

[Kalimna]

For what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoy using some nice tools (having communicated by email with the bloke(s) who make them - I like the personal touch) for the sheer reason that they are nice tools. In much the same way I enjoy a glass of fine wine or whisky when it's drunk from a crystal glass more than I would do with a plastic beaker. It doesnt change the taste, but it 'feels' better. And the feeling better is a very subjective thing, in all walks of life.
I also am fascinated with the idea of making tools oneself (hence my posts on making handsaws and planes), and am extremely proud of the purpleheart/hornbeam/yew plane I made, with all it's faults. If I had the space/experience in metallurgy/time/equipment, I would love to make some chisels too, but that is out for the timebeing.
To re-use a piece of equipment (certainly in this day and age) that has already had a life in someone elses hands (quite literally in the case of handtools) also has a romantic, and financial, ideal. The fact is that in fettling these older tools into a condition where they work beautifully, one learns essential skills along the way.
I love my highend toolery, but I can also see the reasoning behind tools at the lower end of the spectrum that need a little work put into them to start with. But I can see no reason whatsoever for denigrating either viewpoint.

Rant over!

And BTW, I also have the Veritas micro-adjustable wheel gauge, and prefer it simply because it fits my hand better than a traditional design. Couldn't quite see the justification for the Tite-Mark one tho... Now, where was that link to Clenton Tools.........

Take care,
Adam

 

[wizer]

Big yawn, change the record?

Take your own advice Jacob. No one's listening.... How's the £70 saw you just bought off Matthew?

 

[Tony Spear]

All this don't arf make Oi larf!

It doesn't just happen in woodwork either you know.

Cameras: I've got what was a pretty pricy high end Digital when I bought it and it's still pretty adequate for my needs, but when I go anywhere that there are lots of photography enthusiasts I can see the sneers from those with top of the range DSLR's. On the other hand I've got something like 12 or 15 film cameras from half frame to quarter plate that I accumulated before digital came along. My first SLR was a Pentax Spotmatic which still works pefectly well, but when they brought out their last top end camera the LX, I had some money kicking about, so I bought one. I suppose the optics might be a little better than the Spotmatic but quite frankly I can't see the difference between the two at 12 x 16 and the LX certainly doesn't make me a better photographer but I love it just the same.

Fishing: I'm still using a couple of old fibreglass fly rods and sometimes even my Grandfather's old split cane which has to be at least 50 years old. The modern carbon rods (of which I've got 2 or 3) can be quite amazing to use, but even now people will shell out more for hand made split case than carbon 'cos it feels nice. I just use whatever I feel like using at the time. Whatever rod you use, it won't make you a better fisherman.

Cars: I've got what appears to be a 1960 Series 2 Land Rover, until you look underneath, where you find coil springs Range Rover axles and disc brakes and a 3.5 litre V8. It's stll bloody cold in the winter, the screen is almost impossible to de-ice on short runs in the cold' its still got the original unassisted steering so I haven't got the balls to drive it over 80mph :shock: and it costs a bleedin' fortune to run, but I like it, particularly when I'm tootling along the local lanes and I get one of the local heroes in a hot hatch or white van man up my arse!

Back to tools: my marking knives are bits of old hacksaw blades with RH and LH bevels ground on the ends and grips consisting of insulating tape wrapped around the blades and they seem to have worked pretty well for the last 40 years!

So: as long as it does the job to your satisfaction and you enjoy it, use whatever you like!

Cor! I feel a lot better after all that!

P.S. Grim: Jameson's? I prefer Crested Ten when I can get it!

 

[Tony Spear]

And another thing, I can't even drive the bloody Land Rover at the moment 'cos I've got a DVT and a Pulmonary Embolism on top of my COPD, hence the fact that I can't get to Ye Olde bash! :evil:

 

[mr grimsdale]

Big yawn, change the record?

Take your own advice Jacob. No one's listening..

You seem to be following every word!

.. How's the £70 saw you just bought off Matthew?

I bought it as a yard stick to compare with what I've got as I'm doing a lot of hand dovetails lately.
Nice saw - highly polished back but not as sharp as I hoped.
I'd rather have had it the other way round but that's because I'm a bit of a beginner with saw sharpening, and if I want polish I can do it myself. But it came with a good quality needle file so now it cuts just as well as my old Spear & Jackson DT saw.
A DT saw needs to cut well on the backstroke so you can define the line precisely without the saw skipping. The new one didn't. It does now.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

A DT saw needs to cut well on the backstroke so you can define the line precisely without the saw skipping.

What?

Explain please.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[mr grimsdale]

A DT saw needs to cut well on the backstroke so you can define the line precisely without the saw skipping.

What?

Explain please.

Regards from Perth

Derek

How I do it on the end grain of a board is to put the saw on the far edge and draw it back, and lower to horizontal, to make a neat starter kerf alongside the line. Isn't that how everybody does it?
More difficult to start a cut forwards as until the kerf is started the saw can skip sideways, and similarly difficult to start backwards if it isn't sharp.
Does that make sense?
Ditto across the grain come to think - though the backwards starter kerf would just be through the far arris and not necessarily right across.