Tools for Dovetails

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Routered dovetails, even with the best jig available, cannot match a handtool set up for creativity and shape. There is absolutely no way that any jig can cut these dovetails ..

To set out and cut dovetails, you need ..

1. a dovetail saw!
2. a pencil/ballpoint pen and marking knife (for initial marking out).
3. a small square (if transfering tails to pin board).
4. either a dovetail gauge or a sliding bevel gauge (for setting out angles).
5. 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" chisels, preferable bevel edge with thin shoulders (the narrower chisels are for the tails and the wider ones for the pins).
6. either a coping saw or a jeweller's saw (to remove waste from the tails).

With the dovetail saw, I'd get the Veritas 14 tpi without blinking an eye. An absolute bargain at the price, compared to the upmarket versions. Keep in mind that a newby is not going to sharpen and set a dilapidated vintage saw or convert a cheap new one.

A coping saw will work nearly as well as a jeweller's saw with regard control, but has the edge in speed. The choice is yours.

Chisels? The AI are excellent, and if you already have your eye on them, well you are set.

All the other items are likely already in your kit.

Want to make your own marking knife? http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/A Knife for Marking Dovetails.html

Want tips on making dovetails (as well as a picture of a jeweller's saw)?http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter Dovetails.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[xraymtb]

Whats wrong with collecting tools at the same time as working some wood. Perhaps when asked this question there should be two lists, one for beginners and the second for collectors. Spending money on tools (as long as the family don't starve) is better than what many spend there money on :x .

Its interesting to read these responses - I had thought that asking for a shopping list with a £200-400 budget would have lots of mentions of Lie-Nielsen and the like but so far, it appears a Veritas saw and a few AI chisels is about as expensive as its going to get!!!

I was leaning towards the Veritas - it seems a reasonable price for a specialist saw without going overboard - and the AI chisels as I met them at a show last year and was very impressed with the product and the staff.

From the responses, I'm fairly sure I can get by without a dovetail marker but I do need a better marking knife (currently using my old Stanley). I did see Rob Cosman recommending against using a traditional style marking guage but it all I have - does anyone else use this or should I spend on a wheel type guage?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Oops, forgot the marking/cutting gauge.

The Veritas wheel gauge is the cheaper option, with the Tite-Mark the more expensive version. Veritas do sell a couple of even cheaper wheel gauges, but you really want something suited for the average sized drawer.

In my opinion the basic Veritas is good enough, but the adjustable TM is better and probably worth the difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Chems]

... there's nothing wrong in treating yourself to the Veritas saw. Which is cheap and by all accounts, brilliant.

but a bit coarse (14tpi) horribly over sold and no better than any old DT saw which is reasonably straight and sharp. Within reason - the Draper offering at about £4 is rubbish, unless they have managed to sort out the sharpening, in which case it would be a much better deal than the Veritas if hardpoint is your thing.?

They now have a 20tpi model:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... =1&jump=44

 

[wizer]

What grumpy old timers like lurker and grimsdale will never get is that some of us like having superior tools that look nice and are well made. Bleating ad nauseum about what we need and what we want is really rather boring. Like I said, we all know dovetails can be cut with a bread knife and a pick axe, but there's nothing wrong in having luxury tools. No matter how you drone on about it, you're never going to persuade us to stop buying exactly what we want to buy. :roll:

 

[xraymtb]

So what is the argument for and against a finer toothed saw?

Lee Valley suggests the 14tpi is best for thicker stock and the 20 tpi for thinner stock?

 

[wizer]

does anyone else use this or should I spend on a wheel type guage?

Wheel types are nice. I find the traditional style clunky and hard to hold. The Axi clone of the Titemark is nice, but not as nice as the real thing I wouldn't bother with the very cheap ones tho. The ones I use most often are the ones MrEd made for me.

 

[mr grimsdale]

What grumpy old timers like lurker and grimsdale will never get is that some of us like having superior tools that look nice and are well made. ....

No I understand perfectly.
But what ps me off is the endless denigrating of ordinary tools which could seriously undermine your confidence and lead you to fork out for flashy tools which in the end add nothing to your performance.
Marking gauges frinstance - just about the simplest and easiest of all tools to use , the old trad design being quite perfect and available at little cost (£6 here, cheaper ones available) on ebay for £1 or less.
Yet there is continual 'noise' abt various posher versions which do nothing at all special. Titemark £80!!! ludicrous.

I've just improved my 2 ancient Spear & jackson DT saws by tapping the brass back appropriately to straighten the blade. You hold one end of the blade tight in a wood faced vice and give a sharp tap to the brass back above. This pushes the blade up into the back so that it pulls the edge tighter IYSWIM. You couldn't do that with the Veritas or the LN.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

So what is the argument for and against a finer toothed saw?

Lee Valley suggests the 14tpi is best for thicker stock and the 20 tpi for thinner stock?

This may help: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[woodbloke]

From the responses, I'm fairly sure I can get by without a dovetail marker but I do need a better marking knife (currently using my old Stanley). I did see Rob Cosman recommending against using a traditional style marking guage but it all I have - does anyone else use this or should I spend on a wheel type guage?

You can use a sliding bevel, I did for years, but there's so many decent dedicated markers out there, you might as well have one. I use a Kell marker but there are plenty of others equally as good.
I always use the standard guages as well (suitably modified) but did get hold of a nice wheel gauge for a Sectet Santa present...yet to be christened in the 'shop. Use whichever sort of gauge you feel most comfortable with - Rob

 

[studders]

Grim keeps making the same point & I agree with him.

Sometimes we forget where needed tools ends & collecting begins.......

.

So do I but, with the caveat that you could drive from John O'Groats to Lands End in the cheapest of cars, providing it works of course. Doing the same trip in a somewhat nicer vehicle is probably going to make it a more comfortable trip; it won't make you a better driver though.

Which is what my take on the Grims point is.

 

[xraymtb]

Surely though there is a point at which the tool makes a difference here?

I have no saw sharpening skills so fettling an old or cheap saw isnt going to happen. Having watched that DVD, I can see that a minimal set to the saw teeth makes a great difference in making a straight cut and so a dedicated DT saw is my only option.

Also, at the price of the Veritas, I dont think people are recommending 'collector' tools - its half the price of an equivalent LN or Gramercy.

On the side of chisels - I know for a fact that my 1/4" Stanley (which is great for chopping into a mortice and pares nicely when sharpened) won't cut between the tails well as the bevel is too thick and chunky. Again however the AI chisels arent all that expensive - I could get a set of 4 DT chisels and 2 fishtail skews for £100.

Add in a fret/coping/jewellers saw and a new marking knife and I'm still well below my £200 minimum budget.

 

[Alf]

S'funny, I was thinking I must have missed the memo where doing things with the crappiest tools was the new way to get bragging rights. It's that old reverse snobbery again - and instead of newbies intimidated by large price tags now we'll get folks too scared to enjoy nice tools. Sigh. Anyway...

Mike, sounds like you're on the right lines. Don't stint on your marking kit - if you don't get the marking out right, all the sawing and chiselling genius in the world won't save you. And if you find a coping saw that doesn't squirm like a greased eel, let us know. :wink:

 

[wizer]

Jacob don't you get board of that line? We all are...

 

[wizer]

Add in a fret/coping/jewellers saw and a new marking knife and I'm still well below my £200 minimum budget.

If this is a hobby and it's not money needed elsewhere, then do whatever you bloody like with it! Ignore trolls like grimsdale who just want to stir things up. Yes dovetailing can be done with a minimum of tools but they don't have to be the cheapest you can find. He just wants you to feel guilty about wanting to but good new tools.

 

[trousers]

Ignore trolls like grimsdale who just want to stir things up.

Fight, fight, fight....!!

Actually, thats abit strong isn't it wizzer? Wahts wrong with having a different opinion on the subject, or isn't that allowed on this forum?

 

[Jake]

It does create barriers to entry to suggest that they are necessary rather than nice.

I love expensive tools and toys, but Grim's viewpoint seems like a perfectly valid one to me, and there is no reason I can see to have some emotional reaction to it.

 

[studders]

Sorry but I don't see it as trolling. Having a fixed view maybe but not trolling.

 

[wizer]

I just find it utterly boring that he yarns on about it like those of us who buy nice tools are from Mars. He just likes to be argumentative. Those of use who are for nice shiny tools have all said it's not absolutely necessary, but still nice to have. Yet grimsdale thinks it's utterly absurd that anyone would buy something that is less than 30yrs old.

 

[mr grimsdale]

Jacob don't you get board of that line? We all are...

No I don't, sorry! I'm very interested in what you can do with just a few old tools.

As it happens I've been looking closely at how to do DTs efficiently, amongst other things, over the last few weeks. I don't use crappy old tools at all. Old perhaps but not crappy. I've quite enjoyed getting them sorted and working nicely - it's become a little challenge. Interesting too - and cheap on ebay, old woodies for £0.99, marking gauges for £1 and so on.
I've had to get to grips with sharpening 20 tpi saws and re-facing pitted chisels and plane blades.
Perhaps you are right and I should just bin them and buy a new lot, but that would be really boring.
I have bought one or two new things to fill gaps - a 1/4" footprint chisel, another DT saw (but then I revived my old ones so I needn't have bothered).
And a set of Crown gents saws. Don't really need them either - but it got me into sharpening.

Seems quite a legitimate hobby, whats the problem, should I keep it a secret?