Thieving little twats

[Bluekingfisher]

I know exactly how you feel, but remember, we all have the vote, yet some seem to vote in the same ............. soft on law and DISorder.

We reap what others sow!!

I have friends in the states, this friend has a large property, he caught several youths stealing from his boat house, he ran outside with the mobile phone and his sons BB gun and held them at bay until the cops turned up. They were tagged and bagged but before the cops left he was taken to one side and told, if you are going to shoot them, drag them back into the house first, then shoot them.

 

[Lons]

I think that thieves have no fear of punishment these days, they most probably think if they are caught the first few times, they only get a caution, after that they most probably can survive around 30 or so convictions before a jail cell becomes vacant.

I think physical punishment needs to come back, not this modern day soft approach, mind you I got through the scrumping era unscathed.

Prison is definately not a deterent for any of them as by the time they get to that stage they are experienced and hardened criminals.
A term in prison is a holiday for many compared to what they have outside.
They have access to warmth, decent food, unlimited TV and games access and should the crimes be funding a drug habit, they get free methedone.
On leaving prison, they receive a cash benefit and if released early as per recent legislation because the government won't spend money on more prisons, they are given cash in lieu of lost board and lodging (prison ) WTF!!!!!!!

my wife is a prison nurse - I'd be giving the little b******* something a bit more potent than methedone.

 

[Lons]

I know exactly how you feel, but remember, we all have the vote, yet some seem to vote in the same ............. soft on law and DISorder.

We reap what others sow!!

I have friends in the states, this friend has a large property, he caught several youths stealing from his boat house, he ran outside with the mobile phone and his sons BB gun and held them at bay until the cops turned up. They were tagged and bagged but before the cops left he was taken to one side and told, if you are going to shoot them, drag them back into the house first, then shoot them.

Thing is:

My kids have flown the nest now, but had I been broken into with wife and kids in the house, I wouldn't have thought twice about using a weapon of any kind to attack and chase them off if necessary.

The law is/was an ***, not the fault of the police, They shouldn't be on anyones property but their own and a householder should have the right to eject them by ANY means. Too many "do gooders" argueing for the criminals' rights IMO - what about the poor victims?

Several very close friends are coppers incidently and one is pretty senior so I know there's a lot of activity behind the scenes to keep the little sods in check.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

As a society we have become too liberal and tolerant of those who don't know any better?????????????, they burgle your home and they receive a caution, you awake from your slumber in the middle of the night to protect your property, you get six years and your life and those of your family is never the same again, fair I think.

Soon all the decent law abiding, tax paying, decent folks will be on the inside while the criminals will be on the outside, most probably in your home which has now been possessed to house the poor unfortunates.

 

[Lons]

I'm not sure I'd go as far as dropping the little sods in the north sea or chopping bits off.

Err.........

I trust you don't mean dumping the little gits on us poor northerners. We've got our own contingent to get rid of :shock:

 

[Lons]

Soon all the decent law abiding, tax paying, decent folks will be on the inside while the criminals will be on the outside, most probably in your home which has now been possessed to house the poor unfortunates.

Was in New Zealand and Oz in November and certainly felt much safer than here. A shock to the system when you come back TBH and NZ in particular seems to be as I remember (rose tints again) the UK to be in my youth when nobody bothered to lock their door.

My house these days is like Fort Knox :x

 

[wobblycogs]

With the current crazy state of the law where any defence of yourself or property seems to lead to your very own criminal prosecution I think it falls on us all to decide for ourselves what we would do in a given situation. The fact something is against the law doesn't mean it can't be done just that you must pay the consequences.

The main problem with the law as I see it is while it allows for reasonable force the concept of reasonable seems to have been degraded over time to the point where it is all but meaning less now. You can call the police and let them deal with it but the majority of the time the crime will be over by the time they show up.

Personally, I have considered my response to two scenarios: an intruder in the house when I'm there (probably at night) and a break in to a shed or garage.

In the latter scenario I'm not sure I'd give chase. Simply letting them know they have been seen and the police called would, I'm sure, be enough to scare them off and if it isn't I'm not sure I'd like to face such a gutsy criminal. Part of my thinking here is that by the time I've got my boots on and tooled up the little sod would probably have had it away on his toes anyway.

In the first scenario though, given the opportunity, I would ensure that the criminal was totally incapacitated and there would be no warning given.

The sad thing is that the property owner is made to feel like they are in the wrong if they get borken into and their property wasn't nailed and chained down behind 3m fences with a dozen locks on the door. I don't see a difference between stealing from a shed with a flimsy lock to steal from a shed built like fort knox. In fact why should the lock matter at all, the crime is taking something that didn't belong to you not how easy it was to get to it.

 

[jorgoz]

I think that thieves have no fear of punishment these days, they most probably think if they are caught the first few times, they only get a caution, after that they most probably can survive around 30 or so convictions before a jail cell becomes vacant.

I think physical punishment needs to come back, not this modern day soft approach, mind you I got through the scrumping era unscathed.

Prison is definately not a deterent for any of them as by the time they get to that stage they are experienced and hardened criminals.
A term in prison is a holiday for many compared to what they have outside.
They have access to warmth, decent food, unlimited TV and games access and should the crimes be funding a drug habit, they get free methedone.
On leaving prison, they receive a cash benefit and if released early as per recent legislation because the government won't spend money on more prisons, they are given cash in lieu of lost board and lodging (prison ) WTF!!!!!!!

my wife is a prison nurse - I'd be giving the little b******* something a bit more potent than methedone.

A term in prison is a holiday for many compared to what they have outside.

And for the rest of their life their branded and stigmatised....Trying to find a job is extremely difficult if possible at all and they're stuck in a vicious circle. I'm not saying people should do whatever they like or there shouldn't be some general guidelines to outline society, but you could try and look at it from a different angle.

The harder you punish the harder the criminals will become. Action - reaction.

Nothing happens without a reason, and as i've stated we as a society are responsible for what goes on in that society.

It's always us against them, society's need black sheep to dump their own frustrations and anger onto, but it's much easier shouting at them than to look at one's own issues.

 

[big soft moose]

I think that thieves have no fear of punishment these days, they most probably think if they are caught the first few times, they only get a caution, after that they most probably can survive around 30 or so convictions before a jail cell becomes vacant.

I think physical punishment needs to come back, not this modern day soft approach, mind you I got through the scrumping era unscathed.

Prison is definately not a deterent for any of them as by the time they get to that stage they are experienced and hardened criminals.
A term in prison is a holiday for many compared to what they have outside.
They have access to warmth, decent food, unlimited TV and games access and should the crimes be funding a drug habit, they get free methedone.
On leaving prison, they receive a cash benefit and if released early as per recent legislation because the government won't spend money on more prisons, they are given cash in lieu of lost board and lodging (prison ) WTF!!!!!!!

my wife is a prison nurse - I'd be giving the little b******* something a bit more potent than methedone.

A term in prison is a holiday for many compared to what they have outside.

And for the rest of their life their branded and stigmatised....

Nothing happens without a reason, and as i've stated we as a society are responsible for what goes on in that society.

It's always us against them, society's need black sheep to dump their own frustrations and anger onto.

yeah but if they are societies "black sheep" then they are already branded and stigmatised and therefore a jail term will not add to their societal rejection - in fact within their own society it may well be regarded as a merit.

I agree that society is responsble for its ills , but the responsibility here is in too much wooly left wing thinking and emphasis on rehabilitation of the offender and not enough on punishment or the protection of society at large, which has produced a state of affairs where the offender does not fear the potential consequences of getting caught

 

[Dibs-h]

but then for my troubles, got an official dressing down for chasing them.

I would have told Plod to fook off and stick his dressing down - or better still bend over & I'll do it. Sometimes Plod doesn't half over-egg his\her own importance.

The bit about dragging them back into the house - absolutely spot on. Wouldn't dream of doing anything to anyone - outside the walls of my house.

I suppose in hindsight - on some level - I had accepted that by leaving tools in the workshop and not taking them back into the house, there was a chance (and it wouldn't be small) that someone would come with bolt cutters and cut the chain and take the item. Having said that - it's probably all for the better.

For the cost of what they had taken - peanuts - it's freshened up "security" in my mind, just at the right point - i.e. the door is getting substantially reinforced as is the jamb. Gaps in the fence have been closed, and the chain and crap padlock on the gate between the drive and rear has been replaced with a substantial padlock that is sold as uncroppable (at least with anything less than 3' long).

Ply is about to be ordered to secure the back of the rafters in the roof and CCTV isn't far away. Managed to get some commercial grade equipment at a very good price.

As BlueKingFisher pointed out - time is the enemy of burglars, so if one can make it difficult for them, they'll most likely go somewhere else. You do also run the risk of them coming back in a larger nbr and tooled up and possibly targeting the householder 1st to get to the "valuables". What then?

Now it does beg the question that if windows had toughened\laminated D\G units and then internal grills - and the internal grills were "Live" exactly what would happen to the householder if some smackhead forced his way in thru the substantial glazing and then expired having come into contact with the "live" bars? How is that any different from someone breaking in - smoke cloak going off along with a klaxon and the thief, bricking it and tripping up and whacking his head on the edge of a cast iron saw table and checking out that way?

 

[jorgoz]

yeah but if they are societies "black sheep" then they are already branded and stigmatised and therefore a jail term will not add to their societal rejection - in fact within their own society it may well be regarded as a merit.

There you go, their society is in fact the same as ours and were all human beings, it's the us against them that is part of the equasion i think.

I believe thieves are crossing boundaries for a reason, be it their upbringing, youth, personality, past experiences, the way we as a society pretend to need a lot of stuff to be happy,... and they will for example respond to people who have issues with boundaries as well. Or people who believe materialistic wealth is what it's all about or who are to connected to their goods or people who only see the bad in others, or ....
Quite complex, but then again quite easy. What happens behind the scenes is what i try to take into account.

I'm not saying it's not their fault or responsibility, but maybe nobody quite listens to them. And don't think i'm a softie, but i have quite strong views on this, but quite different from the masses.

Then again, i also believe there are people out there that don't want to be part of our society or don't want to be 'helped' (for lack of a better word), and there should be proper solutions for those people, but it's not by putting them away or punishing them that it will end all woe.

 

[wobblycogs]

I have a feeling that electrified bars behind the window would probably land you in jail if they we, shall we say, put to use. As I understand it you can't lay traps because you can be sure that the person climbing in thought the window actually is a black hatter.

What if your shop was on fire and a fireman was climbing in through the window because your neighbour had told them (wrongly) that they had seen you going in there? A klaxon and smoke screen they will get over, a damn good electrocuting they might not.

As an aside I used to have a firemans axe which was good to 10000V so they probably wouldn't have a problem but that's beside the point.

 

[Dibs-h]

I have a feeling that electrified bars behind the window would probably land you in jail if they we, shall we say, put to use. As I understand it you can't lay traps because you can be sure that the person climbing in thought the window actually is a black hatter.

What if your shop was on fire and a fireman was climbing in through the window because your neighbour had told them (wrongly) that they had seen you going in there? A klaxon and smoke screen they will get over, a damn good electrocuting they might not.

As an aside I used to have a firemans axe which was good to 10000V so they probably wouldn't have a problem but that's beside the point.

One gets the feeling you may as well just leave everything of any value (and not as well) on the front lawn with a sign saying "Help yourself".

 

[wobblycogs]

I know what you mean. You have my sympathy. In the last year we have had two thefts from our property so I know how it can make you feel. The first was almost certainly a couple of labours employed by our builder although we can't prove it. That made off with a couple of copper cylinders we had removed from the house and we going to recycle.

The second one was quite funny though in some respects. A small porch on the side of the house has a lead roof and one night some little sod jumped up on it and tried to rip the lead off. They managed to get away with about 2 sq feet but wrecked the rest trying to get it off and failing (honestly, how useless do you have to be not to able to pull off a lead sheet?).

Anyway, I had a quiet word with the dog after that. I pointed out to her that people were stealing the house from round her and if she didn't start protecting the place soon we wouldn't be able to feed her. My partner was in stitches listening to it. The strange thing is though she started to bark when people came close to the house at night almost as if she understood.

edited for spelling :?

 

[Dibs-h]

I know what you mean. You have my sympathy. In the last year we have had two thefts from our property so I know how it can make you feel. The first was almost certainly a couple of labours employed by our builder although we can't prove it. That made off with a couple of copper cylinders we had removed from the house and we going to recycle.

The second one was quite funny though in some respects. A small porch on the side of the house has a lead roof and one night some little sod jumped up on it and tried to rip the lead off. They managed to get away with about 2 sq feet but wrecked the rest trying to get it off and failing (honestly, how useless do you have to be not to able to pull off a lead sheet?).

Anyway, I had a quiet word with the dog after that. I pointed out to her that people were stealing the house from round her and if she didn't start protecting the place soon we wouldn't be able to feed her. My partner was in stitches listening to it. The strange thing is though she started to bark when people came close to the house at night almost as if she understood.

edited for spelling :?

I was going to replace the knackered Rosemary clays on the 2 bays (1 front & 1 back) with lead - but didn't in the end due knowing just how peeved I would be if I came from work\out and the bay had been stripped.

I saw the Smartwater spray system and thought it was cool - but would be much better were the ink an opaque ink - bright purple or similar. No way the little scrote could lie low for the weeks that it would take for it to come off. Now that has got me thinking - considering it wouldn't take much to cobble something together from some auto water injection bits & pieces. Hhmm. :-k

 

[newt]

Is it true that in prison you pay £1 a week for TV but in a NHS hospital it can be up to £15 a week :evil:

 

[Lons]

Is it true that in prison you pay £1 a week for TV but in a NHS hospital it can be up to £15 a week :evil:

YUP

Except that some hospitals charge £3-4 per day!

 

[jimi43]

My wife was walking our 18 year old dog down a country path behind our property and she was mugged by two young layabouts for her beaten up, cheap, pay as you go, phone.

She came back in a real state and let me know. I was in the workshop at the time and just picked up a 2x2 lump of hardwood and shot after them in the car. Luckily for them (and me) they were long gone...I swear, the red mist had come down and I would have seriously hurt them....

Would I act the same way again...too bloody right I would!

She has been really affected by this and doesn't want to walk the dog on her own anymore...something she really enjoyed. She was more worried about our dog at the time who was going bonkers...but she feared they would hurt him if she set him on them....

I think this whole human rights thing has gone completely potty.....why should we have to put up with this sort of mindless criminality?

I would bring back far stiffer punishments...as some have said...it might not work any better but it sure as hell makes me feel a LOT better!

This whole thread has made me paranoid about my security again...why should we live like this?

Anyway....enough! I'm off to feed the new tiger I have as a pet...

Jim

 

[Lons]

Surely the real problem is that there is no deterrent!
The crims from the start know that they will go through the process of caution, asbo, loads more cautions so by the time they are incarcerated they have become hardened criminals, and yes it is certainly the fault of society.

Punishment should be swift, and effective enough that they are s*** scared of going to prison.

Believe me they are all clued up fully on their "rights" and a lot of sloicitors making loads of money out of the "system" (I know one such person ).

I'll give you a ludicrous example of how it's OTT.

A prisoner who is an addict has self harmed several times, is extremely abusive and foul mouthed to staff. (Most are).

Nurse is called to attend to his latest cut arms to be confronted by a torrent of abuse and refusal of treatment and eventually says to him "for f**** sake pull yourself together. Think how your girlfriend and family must feel when they visit you in that state. We're here to help you for gods sake"

Prison governer passing and overhears - result - nurse is suspended and must undergo training, returns and must be supervised for 1 month and note placed on her record.

Nurse accepts she was wrong but is devastated and demoralised as all she tried to do was help him.
Prisoner (patient) tries to sue for being sworn at.

Not my missus I would add but true nontheless.

As an aside - the reason for refusing treatment is because they want to be sent to hospital where they get visitors who find it much easier to smuggle in drugs!

I've got loads of examples from when I used to supply to the prisons many years ago and some of them are unbelievable1

 

[big soft moose]

yeah but if they are societies "black sheep" then they are already branded and stigmatised and therefore a jail term will not add to their societal rejection - in fact within their own society it may well be regarded as a merit.

There you go, their society is in fact the same as ours and were all human beings, it's the us against them that is part of the equasion i think.

I believe thieves are crossing boundaries for a reason, be it their upbringing, youth, personality, past experiences, the way we as a society pretend to need a lot of stuff to be happy,... and they will for example respond to people who have issues with boundaries as well. Or people who believe materialistic wealth is what it's all about or who are to connected to their goods or people who only see the bad in others, or ....
Quite complex, but then again quite easy. What happens behind the scenes is what i try to take into account.

I'm not saying it's not their fault or responsibility, but maybe nobody quite listens to them. And don't think i'm a softie, but i have quite strong views on this, but quite different from the masses.

Then again, i also believe there are people out there that don't want to be part of our society or don't want to be 'helped' (for lack of a better word), and there should be proper solutions for those people, but it's not by putting them away or punishing them that it will end all woe.

I'm sorry jorgoz but ive never read such twaddle in my entire life - by "their society" i meant the people with whom they regularly mix (ie other "theiving little twats")- if you seriously think that this is the same "society" in which members of this foruim move then you need to look outside the door of your ivory tower.

I too believe that theives are crossing boundaries for a reason - the reason being that they want to steal stuff to sell and buy drugs, lighter gas, white lightning cider, and nail varnish (to sniff), and the reason they do this more now than they did in previous generations is because they dont fear the consequences of getting caught.

as to the them and us - too right there is a them and us - on one hand you have the law abiding citizens who are robbed from who the law now singularly fails to protect, while on the other hand you have the scrotes who rob them which the law singularly fails to punish.

It would be interesting to see if you were still so willing to see their side and "hear what they are saying" if it was you workshop that was turned over or your wife who was mugged