But in context they need work to survive, I do believe China has built roads and schools in some of these countries and digging Cobalt is a lot safer than Uranium.
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NickDReed
Established Member
In context, a large proportion of what are referred to artisanal miners have no choice but to dig for cobalt as other economic opportunities are few and far between. While the Chinese may have funded the building of roads schools and hospitals the DRCs mineral wealth has been used as the personal fund for a collection of despots propped up over the years by governments looking to secure access to minerals needed to aid their development, China is just the latest and the population tend not to have benefitted from any of them.
Infrastructures such as schools and other basic services are under, or not funded by government. So schools and healthcare cost more than a family can afford, so children go to work in informal mines that provide materials to the formal supply chain with no effective monitoring in place to ensure ethical practice. Human trafficking by armed gangs are reported to be common place as is assault, abuse and death within 'artisanal mines'.
The DRC is possibly one of the most mineral rich places in the world yet the country has an official minimum wage of $3.50 per day, which is twice what most of those digging for cobalt in these mines make. They use basic tools and rebar often bare foot inhaling toxic dust and gasses from the mineral extraction processes. Chemicals pollute the soils and water supplies of those living and working near the mines making cultivating the land for food close to impossible. Female miners are paid less than male miners purely due to the fact they are female and it is estimated that the average life expectancy of an artisanal miner if between 45 to 50. For the majority of those mining the choice is to dig and eat, or don't and die.
Cobalt ore is often found in rock formations that contain uranium so unfortunately, it is likely no less dangerous
I would hazard a guess that the people who work in this environment do not do so because they would rather do it than work at the local Starbucks.
I cannot tell if you post is meant as a facetious quip to shine a light on the tragedy of the situation, or a serious statement. Either way, it was suggested earlier in the post that all this doesn't actually happen and it is propaganda espoused by people who don't like electric vehicles. To me, that is an ignorant statement and I wanted to make sure that is not information that goes unaddressed.
I would suggest anyone with any interest on the reality of the developed worlds obsession with renewable 'clean' energy and it's consequences for the people of the DRC read Cobalt Red by Siddharth Kara.
I do not suggest that as an argument for or against EVs or renewable energy, but as a human concerned about the plight of other human beings and feels there are parts of this story that conveniently do not get exposed to too much scrutiny for fear what the truth actually is.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
^^^^
Decided to see what Spectric was replying to...
Note that here- every single one of the vehicles except one he listed is well into the 'luxury' pricetag region- almost all nearing $100k Australian!!!
Even the cheapest is over $80k onroad...
(which is why LFP is winning the battery stakes lol)
Ironically- the exception ( the Hyundai) is still over $20k more than the almost identical BYD Atto 3, has almost exactly the same range as the extended range- but because it uses (maybe??? I can't find anything about its battery chemistry) NMC chemistry, if it does, well you will still have to replace the battery pack at half the distance of a LFP powered car- so still poor value for money...
All the rest are literally well over twice the price of an MG4 ($33k onroad) or BYD Seal ($43k)- both large hatchbacks
Even the similarly sized BYD Atto3 'SUV' is only $47k for the 'XR' version (has about 100km less range than any of those he listed except the Hyundai- you sure are paying a lot for that extra 100km lol) or $45k for the 'standard range' version (still has a very respectable 345km)
Although only some of them are available in Australia anyway- at those prices they won't be popular sellers here lol
Hell- its more than the new Shark 4wd hybrid (and thats an actual 4wd, not a 'softroader' SUV!!!) $58k
You could afford to buy a Shark AND a MG4- and still be less than most of those he listed!!!
So why would you buy any of them???
I suspect the days of the NMC is even more numbered than they predicted even a year ago...
Note that here- every single one of the vehicles except one he listed is well into the 'luxury' pricetag region- almost all nearing $100k Australian!!!
Even the cheapest is over $80k onroad...
(which is why LFP is winning the battery stakes lol)
Ironically- the exception ( the Hyundai) is still over $20k more than the almost identical BYD Atto 3, has almost exactly the same range as the extended range- but because it uses (maybe??? I can't find anything about its battery chemistry) NMC chemistry, if it does, well you will still have to replace the battery pack at half the distance of a LFP powered car- so still poor value for money...
All the rest are literally well over twice the price of an MG4 ($33k onroad) or BYD Seal ($43k)- both large hatchbacks
Even the similarly sized BYD Atto3 'SUV' is only $47k for the 'XR' version (has about 100km less range than any of those he listed except the Hyundai- you sure are paying a lot for that extra 100km lol) or $45k for the 'standard range' version (still has a very respectable 345km)
Although only some of them are available in Australia anyway- at those prices they won't be popular sellers here lol
Hell- its more than the new Shark 4wd hybrid (and thats an actual 4wd, not a 'softroader' SUV!!!) $58k
You could afford to buy a Shark AND a MG4- and still be less than most of those he listed!!!
So why would you buy any of them???
I suspect the days of the NMC is even more numbered than they predicted even a year ago...
One caveat - when running hot enough to lite the catalyst, stop start city traffic not so good. The type of pollutant is also relevant, particulate small enough to enter the blood stream or carry hydrocarbons into the lungs is really bad news in a city (if you can see the smoke it doesn't matter that much). On a long motorway journey they win hands down. Agree with you completely re the science, one problem for all of us, especially the politicians is if you don't understand the science who do you trust.
NickDReed
Established Member
Note that here-these are four cars that didn't exist as of your last post.....only Tesla where manufacturing evs using NMC outside of the US.....remember?
And in the post before that cobalt use was practically zero in EV vehicles and had been for years ..... Remember
But let's turn the conversation to the price of these cars that don't exist using batteries that haven't been being used for a decade.
So you try to divert attention away for the fact you suggested that kids mining cobalt that is used in EVs is a lie spouted by people with an agenda against them.
So, you're talking carp about EV manufacturing and the continued use of cobalt in batteries. But worst of all you gloss over your denial of the plight of Africans who suffer as a result of the supply chain.
What a guy!
Edit - for those living in the UK, from what I can make out the discrepancy in costs of the cars in Australia are significantly different in the UK. I may be incorrect about that though.
Ollie78
Established Member
For many of us any battery electric vehicle is in the luxury pricetag area. They are a slightly scary prospect second hand as well. I am capable of actually repairing a petrol or diesel vehicle myself using mostly standard tools and easily available parts. If your new EV won`t go it is a trip to the main stealer which may be acceptable under warranty but after that it will require deep pockets.Decided to see what Spectric was replying to...
Note that here- every single one of the vehicles except one he listed is well into the 'luxury' pricetag region- almost all nearing $100k Australian!!!
Even the cheapest is over $80k onroad...
This is one reason we all need to be advocating right to repair and actual ownership of the things we own.
I think with time the modularity and ubiquity of ev components will become more standardised as the Chinese companies are doing which will help but for now it`s a rich mans game.
Like I said before- I'm looking at buying one soon (and I live offgrid solar in a VERY rural area lol- my place is literally in the middle of bushland)- the two leading contenders atm are the Atto 3 BEV or the Shark hybrid 4wd... (prefer the Atto EV SUV- but its tow capacity is only 1200kg against 2.5 tonnes for the Shark...)
The Atto is actually about the same price as other midsized ICE SUV's ($47k for the extended range version- 400km plus range) , and the Shark hybrid 4wd is actually CHEAPER than the Hilux turbo diesel I was originally looking at... ($54 k versus well over 60K for the Hilux!!!)
I've gotten to drive an Atto- in a tiny town of 1500 people in the middle of the Queensland bush- there are already SEVERAL ev's present (a Dolphin hatchback, 2 Atto's, and a MG4) and 2 more waiting for theirs to be delivered... (2 T3 vans for a local business...)
Considering that from my town to the next is literally an hours drive through bushland each way- none of the locals have any misgivings about 'range anxiety' in the slightest...
I asked the guy that owns one of the Atto's if I could take it for a test drive (like just 'around the block' kind of thing), just to see what it was like and he was- no worries- I wanna go to Bunnings to get some stuff anyway- wanna drive it there and back???- literally a 2 hour 'test drive'... and came back with still over 'half a tank' of electricity left... could have done it again before needing a charge...
(our nearest Bunnings hardware store is literally an hours drive away each way lol- told you it 'very rural')
LOL- the usual traffic- we went twenty minutes without seeing another vehicle in either direction!!!
in my old Hilux- thats a close to $25 round trip- and compared to the old (non turbo diesel) 'lux I own- that Atto was a rocketship in the acceleration stakes... My sister owns a VW Touareg diesel she bought about three years ago- that was over $60k at the time and is basically the exact same size as the Atto (SUV)- and to buy one new is over $85k now- the BEV is actually cheaper lol
selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
However, at the heart of an EV is an electric drive system that is much, much less complex than a modern ICE. It's the software, sensors and electronics that frightens me.
Like most of us old 'uns here, I'm sure, I used to maintain my car myself back in the old days. Fortunately my wife worked on a Saturday and was spared the sight of a Mini cylinder head on her kitchen table, or an SU carb in bits, or the sight of my legs sticking out from under my latest old banger with parts strewn up and down the drive.
But I wouldn't have a clue with a modern car, EV or ICE.
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TomGW
Established Member
I can identify with this. My 'wrenching' days were MG Midgets, Hillman Avengers etc and ended with my first Mk1 Golf - the Golf required very little beyond basic maintenance and I haven't had an exhaust replaced on any car since 1980. That includes a couple of Audis that I ran to 200k+ miles.
There's so little maintenance that needs doing these days- I started with the old Holden six bangers- 'tune up' every few months (plugs and points, oil change every second tuneup at six months, a set of triple webers that you had to fiddle with the tune every month or so to keep it running well, 4 wheel drums that needed to be adjusted every few months or it started to try and spear you off into the bush or into oncoming cars when you braked, and if you ran petrol from farm tanks or '44's' regular cleaning of the mesh fuel filters with an old toothbrush and once a year or so, carefully pouring small amounts of water deliberately down the throats of the carbs while running to 'decoke' the engine... adjust the valves once a year
The 'joys' of keeping the older cars running...
And all that to get about 100hp from a 179 cubic inches (3l) of 6 cylinder that drank fuel petrol at 15l/100km and over 16 seconds to get from 0 to 100kmh... topped out at 160kmh
In comparison, I got the Hilux ute (still a slug, its an old 1999 non turbo diesel- about the same 0-100 times) but its a 4wd, and can tow the car trailer loaded and still manage 10l/100km (oil change and oil/air filters once a year) or the Corolla (same for it- once a year gets filters/oil done at rego time)- apart from that never had a spanner laid on its motor in over 400000km - 132hp from a 1800cc motor that gets about 8l/100 and does 0-100 in under 8 seconds with a top speed of near enough 200kmh
Oh I'd love an EH again- one of Holdens best looking cars imho- but I don't miss the 'joy' of keeping them running...
Mine was a wagon same colour scheme as this
And its the 'EH Special- same as mine was (the upmarket version lol)- you got no seatbelts, no A/C, but you got the chrome side stripes and you got TWO speed wipers and fan instead of the single speed ones... and a valve AM only radio (that didn't work in mine lol), hand cranked windows (the old '1/4 vent' windows were your 'A/C' lol) with a '3 on the tree' column shift manual (there was an auto available, very few were sold, as they were both slower and a lot thirstier on fuel- the old 2 speed hydramatic- all two gears in the auto- low and drive... Oh and the dismal 35/55w sealed beam headlights- at night you were lucky to be able to see more than 20m on high beam lol- the lux and the Corolla you can see further on low beam than the EH's high beams...
Instrumentation was 'basic'- a speedo and fuel gauge...
The 'safer' EH dash- no seatbelts- but you got a padded dash edge on the steel dashboard!!!! (thats a rare beast... auto!!!)
I miss the old girl though...
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woodieallen
Established Member
Irrelevant. You're shifting the goalposts. Spectric made a very valid point to put a valid counterargument to your diatraibe. Cost of cars is immaterial to the point.
woodieallen
Established Member
Yup. And the move towards replacing every physical switch with a touch screen. Now how is that any more safer than talking on a mobile ?
Um what?????
What diatraibe???
(and what Is a 'diatraibe' LOL)
Ironically the post you quoted is actually one I am in complete agreement WITH Spectric...
Funnily enough, thats one of the attractive things I like about the BYD over the MG4- they have moved away from the touch screen model doing the switching and have actual switches and controls in them... the touchscreen is still available and is used as the display obviously- but there are actual physical switches for things as well- some located on the steering wheel, some in the center console...
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
Within a few years all functions that need to be engaged whilst driving will be voice activated - a number of functions in my car already are.
There will then be legislation (probably EU inspired) to ensure all other vehicle settings and configuration will only be possibly with the vehicle stationary.
Thats often said but is complete rubbish. Dont believe me? close your garage doors, run this engine and stay in there for an hour, you will see the result.
Absolutely.
woodieallen
Established Member
That would be discriminatory to those unable to speak or with a speech impediment and I would have thought challenged in the Courts.
It's actually the truth...
Euro 6 standards are VERY tough, but all newer diesels made in the last few years do meet them...
The old 'stick a hosepipe in the exhaust' to commit suicide is practically a waste of time trying these days...
Absolute rubbish, the exhaust from diesel or petrol car will kill you.
