Smoking

[Spectric]

In the mean time, African men, women and children may still be digging cobalt for dollar(s?) a day with no thought for their health or safety,

But in context they need work to survive, I do believe China has built roads and schools in some of these countries and digging Cobalt is a lot safer than Uranium.

 

[NickDReed]

But in context they need work to survive, I do believe China has built roads and schools in some of these countries and digging Cobalt is a lot safer than Uranium.

In context, a large proportion of what are referred to artisanal miners have no choice but to dig for cobalt as other economic opportunities are few and far between. While the Chinese may have funded the building of roads schools and hospitals the DRCs mineral wealth has been used as the personal fund for a collection of despots propped up over the years by governments looking to secure access to minerals needed to aid their development, China is just the latest and the population tend not to have benefitted from any of them.

Infrastructures such as schools and other basic services are under, or not funded by government. So schools and healthcare cost more than a family can afford, so children go to work in informal mines that provide materials to the formal supply chain with no effective monitoring in place to ensure ethical practice. Human trafficking by armed gangs are reported to be common place as is assault, abuse and death within 'artisanal mines'.

The DRC is possibly one of the most mineral rich places in the world yet the country has an official minimum wage of $3.50 per day, which is twice what most of those digging for cobalt in these mines make. They use basic tools and rebar often bare foot inhaling toxic dust and gasses from the mineral extraction processes. Chemicals pollute the soils and water supplies of those living and working near the mines making cultivating the land for food close to impossible. Female miners are paid less than male miners purely due to the fact they are female and it is estimated that the average life expectancy of an artisanal miner if between 45 to 50. For the majority of those mining the choice is to dig and eat, or don't and die.

Cobalt ore is often found in rock formations that contain uranium so unfortunately, it is likely no less dangerous

I would hazard a guess that the people who work in this environment do not do so because they would rather do it than work at the local Starbucks.

I cannot tell if you post is meant as a facetious quip to shine a light on the tragedy of the situation, or a serious statement. Either way, it was suggested earlier in the post that all this doesn't actually happen and it is propaganda espoused by people who don't like electric vehicles. To me, that is an ignorant statement and I wanted to make sure that is not information that goes unaddressed.

I would suggest anyone with any interest on the reality of the developed worlds obsession with renewable 'clean' energy and it's consequences for the people of the DRC read Cobalt Red by Siddharth Kara.

I do not suggest that as an argument for or against EVs or renewable energy, but as a human concerned about the plight of other human beings and feels there are parts of this story that conveniently do not get exposed to too much scrutiny for fear what the truth actually is.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

^^^^

 

[Dabop]

Decided to see what Spectric was replying to...

Note that here- every single one of the vehicles except one he listed is well into the 'luxury' pricetag region- almost all nearing $100k Australian!!!
Even the cheapest is over $80k onroad...


(which is why LFP is winning the battery stakes lol)

Ironically- the exception ( the Hyundai) is still over $20k more than the almost identical BYD Atto 3, has almost exactly the same range as the extended range- but because it uses (maybe??? I can't find anything about its battery chemistry) NMC chemistry, if it does, well you will still have to replace the battery pack at half the distance of a LFP powered car- so still poor value for money...

All the rest are literally well over twice the price of an MG4 ($33k onroad) or BYD Seal ($43k)- both large hatchbacks

Even the similarly sized BYD Atto3 'SUV' is only $47k for the 'XR' version (has about 100km less range than any of those he listed except the Hyundai- you sure are paying a lot for that extra 100km lol) or $45k for the 'standard range' version (still has a very respectable 345km)

Although only some of them are available in Australia anyway- at those prices they won't be popular sellers here lol
****- its more than the new Shark 4wd hybrid (and thats an actual 4wd, not a 'softroader' SUV!!!) $58k

You could afford to buy a Shark AND a MG4- and still be less than most of those he listed!!!

So why would you buy any of them???


I suspect the days of the NMC is even more numbered than they predicted even a year ago...

 

[Ozi]

Diesels are a bit smelly and do puff a bit of smoke sometimes.
But there is a large body of peer reviewed research which states conclusively that in spite of smoke and smell diesels emit less environmental pollutants and are less damaging to one's health than petrol engines and especially so for diesels with EGR valves and catalytic converters. I wish all the finger-pointing greenie politicians would look at the science for once and stop their endless bleating about 'deadly diesels.'

One caveat - when running hot enough to lite the catalyst, stop start city traffic not so good. The type of pollutant is also relevant, particulate small enough to enter the blood stream or carry hydrocarbons into the lungs is really bad news in a city (if you can see the smoke it doesn't matter that much). On a long motorway journey they win hands down. Agree with you completely re the science, one problem for all of us, especially the politicians is if you don't understand the science who do you trust.

 

[NickDReed]

Decided to see what Spectric was replying to...

Note that here- every single one of the vehicles except one he listed is well into the 'luxury' pricetag region- almost all nearing $100k Australian!!!
Even the cheapest is over $80k onroad...

Note that here-these are four cars that didn't exist as of your last post.....only Tesla where manufacturing evs using NMC outside of the US.....remember?

at this point the only ones still using NCM outside the US are Tesla

And in the post before that cobalt use was practically zero in EV vehicles and had been for years ..... Remember

cobalt use is practically zero these days, and has been for almost half a decade

But let's turn the conversation to the price of these cars that don't exist using batteries that haven't been being used for a decade.

So you try to divert attention away for the fact you suggested that kids mining cobalt that is used in EVs is a lie spouted by people with an agenda against them.

So, you're talking carp about EV manufacturing and the continued use of cobalt in batteries. But worst of all you gloss over your denial of the plight of Africans who suffer as a result of the supply chain.

What a guy!

Edit - for those living in the UK, from what I can make out the discrepancy in costs of the cars in Australia are significantly different in the UK. I may be incorrect about that though.

 

[Ollie78]

Decided to see what Spectric was replying to...

Note that here- every single one of the vehicles except one he listed is well into the 'luxury' pricetag region- almost all nearing $100k Australian!!!
Even the cheapest is over $80k onroad...

For many of us any battery electric vehicle is in the luxury pricetag area. They are a slightly scary prospect second hand as well. I am capable of actually repairing a petrol or diesel vehicle myself using mostly standard tools and easily available parts. If your new EV won`t go it is a trip to the main stealer which may be acceptable under warranty but after that it will require deep pockets.
This is one reason we all need to be advocating right to repair and actual ownership of the things we own.

I think with time the modularity and ubiquity of ev components will become more standardised as the Chinese companies are doing which will help but for now it`s a rich mans game.

 

[Dabop]

For many of us any battery electric vehicle is in the luxury pricetag area. They are a slightly scary prospect second hand as well. I am capable of actually repairing a petrol or diesel vehicle myself using mostly standard tools and easily available parts. If your new EV won`t go it is a trip to the main stealer which may be acceptable under warranty but after that it will require deep pockets.
This is one reason we all need to be advocating right to repair and actual ownership of the things we own.

I think with time the modularity and ubiquity of ev components will become more standardised as the Chinese companies are doing which will help but for now it`s a rich mans game.

Like I said before- I'm looking at buying one soon (and I live offgrid solar in a VERY rural area lol- my place is literally in the middle of bushland)- the two leading contenders atm are the Atto 3 BEV or the Shark hybrid 4wd... (prefer the Atto EV SUV- but its tow capacity is only 1200kg against 2.5 tonnes for the Shark...)

The Atto is actually about the same price as other midsized ICE SUV's ($47k for the extended range version- 400km plus range) , and the Shark hybrid 4wd is actually CHEAPER than the Hilux turbo diesel I was originally looking at... ($54 k versus well over 60K for the Hilux!!!)

I've gotten to drive an Atto- in a tiny town of 1500 people in the middle of the Queensland bush- there are already SEVERAL ev's present (a Dolphin hatchback, 2 Atto's, and a MG4) and 2 more waiting for theirs to be delivered... (2 T3 vans for a local business...)
Considering that from my town to the next is literally an hours drive through bushland each way- none of the locals have any misgivings about 'range anxiety' in the slightest...

I asked the guy that owns one of the Atto's if I could take it for a test drive (like just 'around the block' kind of thing), just to see what it was like and he was- no worries- I wanna go to Bunnings to get some stuff anyway- wanna drive it there and back???- literally a 2 hour 'test drive'... and came back with still over 'half a tank' of electricity left... could have done it again before needing a charge...
(our nearest Bunnings hardware store is literally an hours drive away each way lol- told you it 'very rural')

LOL- the usual traffic- we went twenty minutes without seeing another vehicle in either direction!!!

in my old Hilux- thats a close to $25 round trip- and compared to the old (non turbo diesel) 'lux I own- that Atto was a rocketship in the acceleration stakes... My sister owns a VW Touareg diesel she bought about three years ago- that was over $60k at the time and is basically the exact same size as the Atto (SUV)- and to buy one new is over $85k now- the BEV is actually cheaper lol

 

[selectortone]

For many of us any battery electric vehicle is in the luxury pricetag area. They are a slightly scary prospect second hand as well. I am capable of actually repairing a petrol or diesel vehicle myself using mostly standard tools and easily available parts.

However, at the heart of an EV is an electric drive system that is much, much less complex than a modern ICE. It's the software, sensors and electronics that frightens me.

Like most of us old 'uns here, I'm sure, I used to maintain my car myself back in the old days. Fortunately my wife worked on a Saturday and was spared the sight of a Mini cylinder head on her kitchen table, or an SU carb in bits, or the sight of my legs sticking out from under my latest old banger with parts strewn up and down the drive.

But I wouldn't have a clue with a modern car, EV or ICE.

 

[TomGW]

However, at the heart of an EV is an electric drive system that is much, much less complex than a modern ICE. It's the software, sensors and electronics that frightens me.

Like most of us old 'uns here, I'm sure, I used to maintain my car myself back in the old days. Fortunately my wife worked on a Saturday and was spared the sight of a Mini cylinder head on her kitchen table, or an SU carb in bits, or the sight of my legs sticking out from under my latest old banger with parts strewn up and down the drive.

But I wouldn't have a clue with a modern car, EV or ICE.

I can identify with this. My 'wrenching' days were MG Midgets, Hillman Avengers etc and ended with my first Mk1 Golf - the Golf required very little beyond basic maintenance and I haven't had an exhaust replaced on any car since 1980. That includes a couple of Audis that I ran to 200k+ miles.