should i just bite the bullet and get a sorby pro edge?

[Rhossydd]

going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from.......//.....
On those occasions which 9 times out of 10 are a detail gouge, skew or bowl gouge I want the fastest route to a new edge and I'll just roll it freehand or even use the card file in my pocket.

From my experience so far, I'm only seeing the fingernail gouge as being even slightly time consuming to set up, maybe 90s ?
I'm expecting to have the SPE set up at the correct angle for the tool I'm mainly using so it's just a case of switching it on.
When wanting to work quickly like this the SPE has another small advantage in that it gets to working speed almost instantly, whereas most grinders take a few moments to speed up.

 

[woodpig]

The Sorby has an adjustable tool rest anyway, with a scale for angles. Why would anyone want more than that?

Er, that's a jig. The bowl gouge part that fits in the rest just makes life easier, faster and more reliable. It also makes grinding square and true dead simple too.
The fingernail jig is also fast and easy to use. Trying to make good fingernail grinds without a jig takes a LOT of skill and practice, there's simply no need to waste expensive tool steel and, most importantly, valuable time learning that skill when a simple jig makes it so simple.

Spot on. Spending hours learning to sharpen free hand on a double ended grinder is a waste of time and tool steel. If that's all you've got go for it but in terms of time spent and tool steel saved the PE will soon pay for itself.

 

[CHJ]

........going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from the crucial "muscle memory" zone I'm in with that particular piece and I don't want to be disturbed for fear of being thrown off.
.....

And there is the crucial point about jigs and specifically those for winged gouges, to gain maximum benefit of speed and consistent profile of the jig you need a jig set and fixed for each tool.

This came to light for me when I did a review of the Tormek System for a magazine some years ago in respect of turning gouges.
Tormek make no secret about the need to clearly mark the jigs for repeat and accurate settings, something that is totally impractical if you have several differing profile gouges, but the excellent DVD by Jeff Farris that comes with the system confirms this to the point that he has a jig set for each tool, even to the point of locking them with PK screws.

As my bowl gouge grinding jigs are based on the same jig and extra personally made copies of its form I have jigs permanently set to specific profiles.

As the Sorby Pro Edge uses the same profiling mechanism I see the need to do exactly the same for maximum ease and speed of use, like all tool types, there are many instances of needing more than one specimen pre-set to your needs if maximum speed and convenience of use is to be achieved.

Why do you need a set of chisels or half a dozen different sized Planes, won't one small one do the job?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from.......//.....
On those occasions which 9 times out of 10 are a detail gouge, skew or bowl gouge I want the fastest route to a new edge and I'll just roll it freehand or even use the card file in my pocket.

From my experience so far, I'm only seeing the fingernail gouge as being even slightly time consuming to set up, maybe 90s ?
I'm expecting to have the SPE set up at the correct angle for the tool I'm mainly using so it's just a case of switching it on.
When wanting to work quickly like this the SPE has another small advantage in that it gets to working speed almost instantly, whereas most grinders take a few moments to speed up.

You're right...it is fast. I even have spacer's screwed to my sharpening station bench with the appropriate settings to speed up different protrusion settings. Most of the time I do use the jigs. I think the time I tend to revert to freehand or card scraper is when my concentration is really focused on the piece. You know when you're really "in the zone" and the turning feels very natural and the tool control is as good as it gets for your skill. That's when I resent having my concentration too broken up with a mechanical operation. It'll be interesting to see how you develop with yours. I rarely use the angle jig for the skew now. I have the platen set at the 15 degree angle but I freehand the edge because I like a slight convex radius on the skew edge which helps to avoid catches when rolling beads and doing planing cuts. (It grinds the wings further back) So when grinding my skew, particularly the 1/2", I rock the edge side to side to keep the radius. That makes the little triangular insert jig redundant for me, the platen is doing all the donkey work by preserving the bevel angle and I eyeball the radius.

 

[Jacob]

Bob does have a point too Jacob....if you tried a slightly less "dogmatic" approach it might save a lot of grief.

I couldn't care less what people use but I'm not happy with the continuous repetition of the view ( perhaps coming from those with an engineering background?) that there is only one "correct" way to do these things.
I think it's quire useful to let people know that they don't have to buy all this kit, polish tools to a mirror flat finish etc etc there are interesting alternative ways which, until quite recently, were what everybody did, with no obvious detriment to their output.

One thing that crops up a lot in these threads is the bench grinder. I think these are really bad for sharpening, especially for beginners - even more so for turners. They are often recommended. This is misinformation in my view

..... Spending hours learning to sharpen free hand on a double ended grinder is a waste of time and tool steel. ....

Spot on!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

........going to all the faff of setting up the jig is just keeping me away from the crucial "muscle memory" zone I'm in with that particular piece and I don't want to be disturbed for fear of being thrown off.
.....

And there is the crucial point about jigs and specifically those for winged gouges, to gain maximum benefit of speed and consistent profile of the jig you need a jig set and fixed for each tool.

This came to light for me when I did a review of the Tormek System for a magazine some years ago in respect of turning gouges.
Tormek make no secret about the need to clearly mark the jigs for repeat and accurate settings, something that is totally impractical if you have several, but the excellent DVD by Jeff Farris that comes with the system confirms this to the point that he has a jig set for each tool, even to the point of locking them with PK screws.

As my bowl gouge grinding jigs are based on the same jig and extra personally made copies of its form I have jigs permanently set to specific profiles.

As the Sorby Pro Edge uses the same profiling mechanism I see the need to do exactly the same for maximum ease and speed of use, like all tool types, there are many instances of needing more than one specimen pre-set to your needs if maximum speed and convenience of use is to be achieved.

Why do you need a set of chisels or half a dozen different sized Planes, won't one small one do the job?

It's funny actually Chas...my sharpening path as a consequence of turning has meandered a few times and I now have a veritable arsenal which plays directly to your point. The least time I spend sharpening, the happier I am and that either means you just freehand or you have dedicated setups. I have a bench grinder with the Tormek BGM-100 jig assembly thingummy permanently mounted with the Torlok toolrest. That takes care of all my scrapers and is almost always set at 80 degrees. All I do for a scraper is abrade any remaining burr off the top then grind a new edge in literally 2 passes. My Tormek is setup with the usb for my favourite bowl gouge because for some reason I think it gives a better ellipse than the PE on deep fluted gouges (don't ask me why...just feels right). I have a second SVD-185 set at a different knuckle setting for a different grind. So unless experimenting, I never have to do knuckle setting changes. I used to have wooden spacer blocks (a la Jeff Farris) for common other usb distance quick setups but now the PE has taken over. The PE has consumed all spindle gouge, skew, tipped tools and roughing gouge operations, oh yes and parting tools. I assumed when I bought the Tormek I would jettison the dry grinder and equally the PE, I would sell the Tormek. Quite the reverse has happened because they each now deliver a dedicated set of sharpening procedures which cuts the setup time. I don't like long setup times

Free-handing has its place in there, that's all I'm saying. I couldn't live by it like Jacob advocates but I wouldn't want to be without it either. Having defended free-handing, I would still only put it at 5% of my usage personally.

 

[DennisCA]

I have a single cheap diamond plate and I've been freehand sharpening on this. It's been a bottleneck.

Recently I bought a simple and cheap jig for holding plane blades or chisels at a consistent angle. And boy did that jig improve my sharpening. Sharpened my smoother on it and it's never worked this well.

I think the grit on the plate is 600, I wouldn't mind a bigger one but this grit allows me to get a good edge. I am not sure where to go from here to be honest. I could try for a se of diamond plates like paul sllers, with this jig I would get real good results from such a setup. Especially if I strop it later on.

The other route I had been planning a while now, that would be to build a rotary wet grinder, that is my own homemade Tormek. Since I have several suitable induction motors and I think it would be a wash money wise, this would be more complicated to build though, but perhaps more efficient and would allow me to spend the least time sharpening.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Bob does have a point too Jacob....if you tried a slightly less "dogmatic" approach it might save a lot of grief.

I couldn't care less what people use but I'm not happy with the continuous repetition of the view ( perhaps coming from those with an engineering background?) that there is only one "correct" way to do these things.
I think it's quire useful to let people know that they don't have to buy all this kit, polish tools to a mirror flat finish etc etc there are interesting alternative ways which, until quite recently, were what everybody did, with no obvious detriment to their output.

One thing that crops up a lot in these threads is the bench grinder. I think these are really bad for sharpening, especially for beginners - even more so for turners. They are often recommended. This is misinformation in my view

..... Spending hours learning to sharpen free hand on a double ended grinder is a waste of time and tool steel. ....

Spot on!

I think we get that

No one is about to accuse you of not flying the flag for using traditional methods. As I've said many times before, I have a great deal of respect for those methods and the skills they drive. And in fairness, you have alerted the poster to the fact that free handing is a legitimate option so "job done" right? Perhaps if we all accepted there is more than one way these debates wouldn't generate quite as much unnecessary heat. You know, it's OK to do both

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

On the subject of getting polished mirror bevels and exact angles and all that....my turning club has a pro turner do a demo most months and I would say the vast majority of them freehand their gouges on a flash dry grinder like a Creusen. Some use a Tormek. Almost to a person, they tend to say, whether the bevel is 45 degrees or 50 or 42 doesn't matter a jot. On close inspection their bevels have more facets than.....a politicians press officer!

So I do believe there is a bit of a tendency to get just a bit anally retentive about all this, myself included. The priority of the professional is very clear to me....get back to the job as fast as possible. If that's not accessible for the amateur then jig up. Both methods have their uses.

 

[Jacob]

I've said it before (and I'll say it again!) IMHO the uttermost best value in powered sharpening kit is a Bosch GBH75 sander. It just sits on the bench upside down you don't need to fix it and you just do everything freehand - or make up some wooden blocks if you want to. Good value because it is also a really good sander.
Very cheap and excellent powered option is a sanding disc on the other end of your headstock. Make your own from a bit of ply on a face plate, velcro, etc. These are really handy. If the ply is thick enough you can put profiles on the edge for polishing inside/outside gouges (plus Autosol or similar) - handy for carvers.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I can't get a fingernail grind right freehand, so I use the club's jigs, but for bowl gouges the attraction to me is that I only take off a few thou of steel with jig - bowl gouges cost too much to waste just to prove a point. I agree with J. on the sanding disc - I've been grinding plane irons on one for 30+ years. I also had a suede strop on one as well. The one and only moan I here about the SPE from other turners is that they are used to working with hollow grinds, which of course don't come with it.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I agree fingernail grinds are tricky free hand and no mistake. That was kind of my point about the pro turners though, they don't care if its not pretty. They certainly do care that the cutting edge is where they want it to be though, just not the single facet bevel thing and certainly don't give a stuff about polish.

 

[woodpig]

There really isn't a right or wrong way provided it achieves the end result of cutting wood effectively.

Many years ago there weren't that many options. In practical terms most amateurs would use a double ended grinder because that was what they could afford. Wet grinders became another option for those that could afford them. You can, and many do, still use these methods to sharpen their tools.

Move on some years and Sorby released their Pro Edge. I stand to be corrected but I believe this came about as Sorby sharpened their range of tools on a belt sander in the factory and decided to develop something suitable for home users.
The Pro Edge isn't cheap but for a specialist machine built in relatively small numbers compared to say a double ended grinder I believe it represents reasonable value for money. With built in pre set angles and jigs it is surely the quickest and easiest system for new users. The ability to change grades at will is unmatched using other machines. I also believe the Pro Edge to be somewhat safer than grinders due to the risks involved in poorly fitted wheels etc.

I can appreciate the time and effort required to free hand sharpen turning tools, particularly "finger nail" grinds but if you can afford the PE then it's a skill you simply don't need to learn in order to be a wood turner unless you want to.

It must be somewhat irksome to have spent many many hours learning to hand sharpen tools only to see a novice get the same results in a few minutes but things move on, there's no point in getting upset by it. Although I can appreciate the satisfaction of getting a keen edge on a tool it's just a neccesary chore for me, not something to be savoured!

At the end of the day though it's all about choice. Use what works for you and makes you happy, just stay safe. :wink:

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I've said it before (and I'll say it again!) IMHO the uttermost best value in powered sharpening kit is a Bosch GBH75 sander. It just sits on the bench upside down you don't need to fix it and you just do everything freehand - or make up some wooden blocks if you want to. Good value because it is also a really good sander.
Very cheap and excellent powered option is a sanding disc on the other end of your headstock. Make your own from a bit of ply on a face plate, velcro, etc. These are really handy. If the ply is thick enough you can put profiles on the edge for polishing inside/outside gouges (plus Autosol or similar) - handy for carvers.

Did you buy the PE because it allowed you to just go faster then? I.e. because the platen could be positioned using the detents? In other words is your logic that the PE is essentially a Rolls Royce version of the sanding solution you describe above. A sort of "linisher on steroids" version of the plane belt sander inverted and clamped to a bench?

 

[Jacob]

I've said it before (and I'll say it again!) IMHO the uttermost best value in powered sharpening kit is a Bosch GBH75 sander. It just sits on the bench upside down you don't need to fix it and you just do everything freehand - or make up some wooden blocks if you want to. Good value because it is also a really good sander.
Very cheap and excellent powered option is a sanding disc on the other end of your headstock. Make your own from a bit of ply on a face plate, velcro, etc. These are really handy. If the ply is thick enough you can put profiles on the edge for polishing inside/outside gouges (plus Autosol or similar) - handy for carvers.

Did you buy the PE because it allowed you to just go faster then? I.e. because the platen could be positioned using the detents? In other words is your logic that the PE is essentially a Rolls Royce version of the sanding solution you describe above. A sort of "linisher on steroids" version of the plane belt sander inverted and clamped to a bench?

Yes that's it more or less.
NB the GB 75 doesn't need clamping to the bench - it's a nice rectangular box shape and just sits there upside down.
The Proedge just that bit handier than a GB75 , a lot quieter, always in one spot and accessible.
I try out all sorts of things that people go on about and often sell them on if I don't think they are worth it. But I'll keep the pro edge. No posh planes left at all!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Righto

 

[Lons]

So why keep an expensive pro edge Jacob if the Bosch does all you say it does? Why not sell it and use the proceeds to get several more belt sanders and set them up separately.

I don't disagree with your views on hand sharpening, it's one of my methods as well along with several others but they all work and all have their pros and cons.

I have 2 belt sanders as well as a large Axi belt & disc machine and non of them are substitutes for the pro edge. But that's my view for my circumstances and we're all different - are we not!

 

[Castanea]

This thread has been a really useful reminder to me to think about how I'm sharpening and why. I've been turning for 18 months but have been sharpenning chisels and plane irons for many years. My sharpening of turning tools is far from consistently good partly because I'm still playing with what's the best way for me. This long discussion has been fascinating and has really helped to clarify how many conflicting ways of sharpening there are along with exploring some of the pros and cons. Many thanks to all who've contributed - I think my sharpening (and hence my turning) is likely to improve as a result of reading through so many opinions and so much experience.

 

[Rhossydd]

I rarely use the angle jig for the skew now. I have the platen set at the 15 degree angle but I freehand the edge because I like a slight convex radius on the skew edge which helps to avoid catches when rolling beads and doing planing cuts. (It grinds the wings further back) So when grinding my skew, particularly the 1/2", I rock the edge side to side to keep the radius. That makes the little triangular insert jig redundant for me, the platen is doing all the donkey work by preserving the bevel angle and I eyeball the radius.

I don't think i would have bought the skew jig independently.
In my day of shaping and sharpening on Sunday, I re-visited all of my skews.
My favourite is a Sorby oval 1½" oval skew. Trying to use that on the flat bed of the jig was little better than on any bench grinder and the jig was no great help. I tend to only use it for final smoothing cuts so I try to keep it mirror sharp and polished like a carving tool, so fine sharpen it on a strop anyway.
Like you I also like a curved skew, here the exact angle from the SPE tool rest helps control the angle and the curve then is easy and quick to grind freehand.
I've also a couple of smaller skews for tight work and used the skew jig, which worked, but was no great advantage compared to just using the SPE rest.

 

[Jacob]

So why keep an expensive pro edge Jacob if the Bosch does all you say it does? Why not sell it and use the proceeds to get several more belt sanders and set them up separately.....!

If you need a sander a GB75 will double as a sharpener thanks to it's square box shape (no mounting etc).
Principle drawback being the noise.
A dedicated "sander" the Pro edge is better in general - quieter but for sharpening only, and a lot of additional expense.
But a GB75 is much better than a Pro-edge if you want to shape a wide thick plane blade e.g. from an old woody or one of the modern retro designs. Choices, choices.

On jigs - if people want to use profiles which can only be produced with a jig then jig it must be. But one might ask whether these profiles are necessary.