Sharpening

[yan89]

Sorry if this is already mentioned elsewhere, but is a bench grinder the only way to reset a primary bevel without spending 40 mins using a honing jig on a diamond stone by hand?

I don’t own a bench grinder and have been watching Rob Cosman’s video on resetting primary bevels for tips but it seems he’s really keen on the investment rather than alternatives so thought I’d ask here first

 

[D_W]

bench grinder is probably the cheapest. Cheap grinder, decent rest (you can make it if you have to) and the coarsest wheel you can find - a 24 grit tool room wheel actually works really well.

And a cheap dressing tool.

you can get more expensive options (like CBN wheels and bigger grinders, etc) but CBN doesn't work any better than a 24 grit tool room wheel and they do (CBNs) get tired after a while. They're certainly not up to the challenge of cutting primary bevels on many newly made tools.

You may find that you've triggered people to all provide their favorite pet option.

if you're going to do a primary by hand, you really, though, should do it every time you sharpen so that the amount of work is spread over each sharpening. It will sort of dictate what you like to use in a plane iron and grinding will be more accurate with a grinder where you don't remove the actual edge of the tool. Belt sanders, etc, are OK, but there's no great virtue in running the edge off of a tool.

Comments above come from pretty much trying it all. if I could only have one thing, it would be a cheap grinder with a really coarse wheel and the cheapest chinese wheel dressing tool (T-shaped).

 

[Jacob]

Sorry if this is already mentioned elsewhere, but is a bench grinder the only way to reset a primary bevel without spending 40 mins using a honing jig on a diamond stone by hand?

I don’t own a bench grinder and have been watching Rob Cosman’s video on resetting primary bevels for tips but it seems he’s really keen on the investment rather than alternatives so thought I’d ask here first

No it's not ever been already mentioned elsewhere!
It's fast freehand on an oil stone once you've got the knack of energetic grinding and
is the best way with thin modern plane blades as there is no chance of over heating.
It's quite possible with thick old blades too, if you have to, but helps if you bolt them to a bit of 2x1" by way of a handle so you can put more energy into it.
Chisels are narrower and already have handles so freehand an oil stone is the obvious way.
Honing jigs slow things down.
The best power option is a flat sanding disc as they run cooler and flatter than a bench grinder.
We were taught (in two training experiences) never to use small bench grinders for sharpening, as blades easily over heat, can waste lots of metal and end up looking as though nibbled by rats. Big slow wet wheels preferred option back then.

 

[yan89]

No it's not ever been already mentioned elsewhere!
It's fast freehand on an oil stone once you've got the knack of energetic grinding and
is the best way with thin modern plane blades as there is no chance of over heating.
It's quite possible with thick old blades too, if you have to, but helps if you bolt them to a bit of 2x1" by way of a handle so you can put more energy into it.
Chisels are narrower and already have handles so freehand an oil stone is the obvious way.
Honing jigs slow things down.
The best power option is a flat sanding disc as they run cooler and flatter than a bench grinder.
We were taught (in two training experiences) never to use small bench grinders for sharpening, as blades easily over heat, can waste lots of metal and end up looking as though nibbled by rats. Big slow wet wheels preferred option back then.

Oh really? I have a trend 300/1000 diamond stone and the veritas honing guide and it still took me a good 40 mins..

When you say energetic, do you refer to the downward pressure applied to the plane iron, the vigour of the strokes or both?!

Also would you just grind the iron on the oil stone then go through finer grits on scary sharp or similar for the secondary?

 

[Jacob]

Oh really? I have a trend 300/1000 diamond stone and the veritas honing guide and it still took me a good 40 mins..

When you say energetic, do you refer to the downward pressure applied to the plane iron, the vigour of the strokes or both?!

Both. Fast and furious over the whole length of the stone. Don't worry about primary/secondary flat bevels as long as you don't exceed 30º

Also would you just grind the iron on the oil stone then go through finer grits on scary sharp or similar for the secondary?

I don't think in terns of primary/secondary/micro bevel. I tend to use just one fine stone nearly all the time but occasionally a coarser one if it needs more metal taking off.
I recently rediscovered an old dished and hollowed stone which is brilliant for shaping cambers, then to be finished on the fine stone

 

[Blackswanwood]

Sorry if this is already mentioned elsewhere, but is a bench grinder the only way to reset a primary bevel without spending 40 mins using a honing jig on a diamond stone by hand?

I don’t own a bench grinder and have been watching Rob Cosman’s video on resetting primary bevels for tips but it seems he’s really keen on the investment rather than alternatives so thought I’d ask here first

No it’s not the only way - there are 101ways and you won’t find consensus on which is best. If you have a few days (weeks) to spare have a read back through some of the debates (bickering) on the topic.

One possible solution if you want to go faster is use a more coarse stone or plate and then switch back to a finer one to finish off.

I personally use a Tormek - it works for me but others will have their own chosen methods and there will be those who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their way.

 

[Jacob]

No it’s not the only way - there are 101ways .....

Mostly of recent invention. But there is a long established traditional way -

One possible solution if you want to go faster is use a more coarse stone or plate and then switch back to a finer one to finish off.

- and that is it! Traditionally with reference to angles of 25/30º ish

I personally use a Tormek - it works for me but others will have their own chosen methods and there will be those who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their way.

Never tried one but all users comment on how slow they are, which seems to miss the point of power tool.

 

[Blackswanwood]

But there is a long established traditional way -

- and that is it! Traditionally with reference to angles of 25/30º ish

Never tried one but all users comment on how slow they are, which seems to miss the point of power tool.

As I said there will be some who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their chosen way

 

[Jacob]

As I said there will be some who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their chosen way

Feel free to do it how you like - but the question was asked. People can make their own minds up.
PS the one essential fine and coarse stone I use is a Norton Combination "O" but there are dozens of similar. The best basic beginners stone is something like the Norton IB8 which is medium and coarse. A medium grit is good for most purposes and is good for beginners as you get tangible results quicker.

 

[D_W]

I personally use a Tormek - it works for me but others will have their own chosen methods and there will be those who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their way.

Tormek gets a lot of grief, and sometimes from me. The one thing I remember about it is as soon as it starts to get slow, hit it with the diamond truing tool and it'll be faster again. I'd gotten cheap while using mine not wanting to grade off the stone surface with the diamond truing tool.

I may have already said it in this very thread, but I've heard that some insurers won't allow spark-making tools under their policies (commercial, I would assume, I don't think anyone would ever ask on a residential policy), and in that case, the tormek would work well. )

i'd rather have a tormek than grind by hand. Nobody grinds as accurately by hand as they think they they do and the bias is always toward not finishing the job.

 

[yan89]

Tormek gets a lot of grief, and sometimes from me. The one thing I remember about it is as soon as it starts to get slow, hit it with the diamond truing tool and it'll be faster again. I'd gotten cheap while using mine not wanting to grade off the stone surface with the diamond truing tool.

I may have already said it in this very thread, but I've heard that some insurers won't allow spark-making tools under their policies (commercial, I would assume, I don't think anyone would ever ask on a residential policy), and in that case, the tormek would work well. )

i'd rather have a tormek than grind by hand. Nobody grinds as accurately by hand as they think they they do and the bias is always toward not finishing the job.

When you say it's 'slow', I presume it's much quicker than hand-grinding?

 

[D_W]

On any blade that's thick and relatively hard, it will be a lot faster. But when used right, it's a very accurate machine, removing all but the last bit of the blade, and not really punishing you even if you do grind through to the edge.

An accurate grind will result in better honing and better honing results in a plane working better and cutting longer before clearance runs out.

On thin irons, with a friable crystolon stone, you could hone as fast, but nobody will do that as accurately.

There are sneaky places to waste time with hand tools, but there aren't many people who use them enough to notice them. If you work entirely by hand, youc an discern how much work you're getting done between sharpenings more easily, or how much longer a plane will go before it stops starting a cut near you as easily. That part is important if you're working entirely by hand because dimensioning wood isn't the hack and slash nonsense that you seen on youtube or from book writers, it's a matter of working accurately at a reasonable rhytm and making sure each stroke of a plane is doing what it should. Which isn't working slow, but maybe working 3/4ths as fast as you would think you could ramming away, but ultimately working more accurately and still working through a greater volume of wood.

The reason a dry grinder is nice is because it's cheap, it's quick and if you're only removing metal that's not all the way at the edge, you still maintain the orientation of the edge by hand. My first grinder was a 150mm ryobi grinder with a 250 watt motor. It wasn't a great grinder, but it would be easily good enough to sharpen everything I've ever sharpened.

Having water at the tormek was part of the reason that I sent mine packing - it was a little too fiddly and the dry grinder is faster - and sometimes my shop gets near freezing. It's miserable to get 35 degree F water on cold hands.

But one of the things that seems to bother people the most about a tormek is that there are people who can freely dump $1000 on one plus some accessories and be comfortable enough to spend that without having to have too much regard.

(nearly forgot - dust - another reason some people seem to like a tormek is that there will be no free dust laying around or in the air, and with a grinder, there will be some unless you hook a vacuum to the dust ports.)

 

[Adam W.]

A $1000 dollars for a Tormek !

LOL, You're being properly done.

 

[D_W]

A $1000 dollars for a Tormek !

LOL, You're being properly done.

Beats paying $1000 in fees to someone with a masters in wood art.

I bought a used supergrind about a dozen years ago or more for $300 with a bunch of attachments.

Guy that got me into woodworking was a career engineering manager with an attorney spouse. If he spent $1000 for a tormek, it would be one of the cheaper pieces of motorized equipment in his shop.

I think if someone felt like they were having a go at him about spending that kind of money - or I should say I know what he'd do - he'd probably ask you how you got to where you are. English fellow, too. Moved to the states to get away from the mentality that his dad was a tradie so he should be, too.

 

[Adam W.]

Beats paying $1000 in fees to someone with a masters in wood art.

Ahem!

Two masters degrees in wood art, thank you!

 

[TRITON]

Ask yourself - What did they do in the 18th and 19th centuries ?.

Certainly not ultra accurate edge, laser honed to the exact degree, on a 10,000 grit whatever. And yet some of the finest cabinetry, far surpassing what the majority of us(Adam excepted) can achieve were turned out daily, now filling the museums of the world.

 

[Jacob]

Ask yourself - What did they do in the 18th and 19th centuries ?.

Certainly not ultra accurate edge, laser honed to the exact degree, on a 10,000 grit whatever. And yet some of the finest cabinetry, far surpassing what the majority of us can achieve were turned out daily, now filling the museums of the world.

Tool making was one thing, but once in the hands of the woodworker all he had to do was to hone the edge a little and often at about 30º, which would be freehand on fine stone. Then occasionally speed it up by grinding at 30º or less on a coarse stone or a hand cranked grind-wheel.
Simple stuff, hardly gets a mention in the old books, taken for granted, any fool can do it!
And of course, is still all you need to do in spite of the amazing proliferation of kit, gadgets, methods, in recent years.
Nice book on the industrial side of things is "Back to the Grindstone" by Herbert Housley - mostly about Sheffield cutlery pre WW2 but woodwork tools were made in same shops by the same people. The Hawley Museum is well worth a visit. Just up the road from me!

 

[thetyreman]

also this obsession with getting the exact angle is ridiculous, if it's anywhere between 17.5 and 35 degrees and sharp I'll use it, I don't really care that much anymore about the exact angle, if it takes me more than 3 minutes to sharpen a blade I get annoyed, you've got to be efficient if you want to work with hand tools, even if it's a hobby, you'll save enourmous amounts of time that can be better spent making.

 

[Noel]

A $1000 dollars for a Tormek !

LOL, You're being properly done.

Shop had big windows.... : )

 

[D_W]

also this obsession with getting the exact angle is ridiculous, if it's anywhere between 17.5 and 35 degrees and sharp I'll use it, I don't really care that much anymore about the exact angle, if it takes me more than 3 minutes to sharpen a blade I get annoyed, you've got to be efficient if you want to work with hand tools, even if it's a hobby, you'll save enourmous amounts of time that can be better spent making.

you may have been taking the wee a little bit, but you're pretty close to the effective usefulness of everything from straight razors to tools for hardwood.

I think it's not important to know what the actual angle is. If you're doing to do a lot of hand tool work, it's important to know how to set up a tool so that the edge doesn't get damaged, though. that's a fairly narrow window, and the discussion on the internet tends toward angles instead of tending toward knowing where you tools are just right.

A few years ago, someone asked if I would measure the angle on my plane irons and they were all within a degree of 33 degrees. Freehanded, but they're freehanded off of a quality grind, which is way different than freehanding something where you're trying to abrade a huge cross section of metal.

I think straight razors are around 16-18 degrees, but they don't hold up unless the tip is rounded ala unicorn - which is exactly what the barber linen and shell leather do - they burnish the very tip of the razor round but leave the angle behind the edge very thin and the combination allows for hundreds of shaves without any perceived dullness increase.