Sharpening

[CMax]

My first introduction to proper sharpening was at a woodworking course about 15 years ago by a chap called Bruce Luckhurst in Ashford. Lovely chap, excellent teacher. In a week, he taught us how to tune up old planes and chisels, sharpen them, dimension stock, cut dovetails and make and veneer a drawer front. As far as I can remember, everyone in that class had sharp tools after the day's tuning/sharpening lesson.

The method was very simple: flatten the back on a Norton oilstone using neatsfoot oil, then hand grind the bevel using a figure-of-eight motion. Then it was stropped on a bit of a leather and you were good to go.

@D_W - I watched some of your videos on the unicorn buffing technique (and read your posts here), but I'm a little vague on the whole method. Do I have it right?

1. Grind a 25 degree primary bevel.
2. Freehand hone the 30+ degree secondary bevel on a stone
3. Ruler trick the back.
4. Polish the front and back on a powered buffing machine (or compound on wood)

If that is the case, are you recommending to re-grind the primary every time the plane blade/chisel is sharpened, or do you let the secondary bevel grow larger with each sharpening and only re-grind when it gets too wide?

 

[D_W]

* grind at 20
* hone at a few degrees more (like 23 if you would like a number that was measured, not chosen - as in, I figured out the method without measuring anything and then took a side profile of a chisel later when measurements were requested)
* back flattened - no ruler trick
* buff chisel bevel side into the buffing wheel holding subjectively about 45 degrees to the wheel, or about 15 degrees or so more than just having the bevel tangent to the buffer

I don't generally use the ruler trick - when you use cap irons on a plane, to get all of the wear out of an iron with the ruler trick, you end up chasing the back bevel bigger and bigger, and it's counterproductive.

 

[Jacob]

....

The method was very simple: flatten the back on a Norton oilstone using neatsfoot oil, then hand grind the bevel using a figure-of-eight motion. Then it was stropped on a bit of a leather and you were good to go.

.....

That's it - with tiny variations.
E.G. Any thin oil will do. Doesn't have to be literally a figure of 8 - can be a swirl, or straight up and down, round and about, whichever way to use the whole surface of the stone. To be sure that I have honed 100% I bring up a burr across the whole width before turning it over to flatten and take the burr off, or do the "without a ruler"* trick on old not very flat blades.
* same as the ruler trick but without a ruler - it's easier.
A little and often, quick, easy, cheap, simple, traditional.
About as difficult as sharpening a pencil with a knife.

 

[yan89]

No it’s not the only way - there are 101ways and you won’t find consensus on which is best. If you have a few days (weeks) to spare have a read back through some of the debates (bickering) on the topic.

One possible solution if you want to go faster is use a more coarse stone or plate and then switch back to a finer one to finish off.

I personally use a Tormek - it works for me but others will have their own chosen methods and there will be those who mistakenly feel it really matters that everyone doesn’t do it their way.

Out of interest, which Tormek did you go for? and which attachments do you need for plane & chisel sharpening alone? Still completely undecided but wanted to price it up out of interest

 

[Blackswanwood]

Out of interest, which Tormek did you go for? and which attachments do you need for plane & chisel sharpening alone? Still completely undecided but wanted to price it up out of interest

I have the T3 which I think has become the T4 in the current range.

Either of these will do what you are looking for

https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/grinding-jigs/se-77-square-edge-jig/
https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/grinding-jigs/svd-110-tool-rest/
It works for me but I’m definitely not holding it out as the right way for everyone. I settled on it after doing a course with Chris Tribe in Ilkley where various methods were available to try.

I re-established the bevel on a Clifton Plane iron on Saturday in about ten minutes. I have no doubt others can match or beat that with their chosen method.

 

[D_W]

Out of interest, which Tormek did you go for? and which attachments do you need for plane & chisel sharpening alone? Still completely undecided but wanted to price it up out of interest

the square edge jig is really all you need, but if it doesn't come with a diamond truing tool, I'd get that also as the way to make the thing work fast is to skim the dullness off of the wheel regularly.

or you can buy one of the CBN wheels that are made for them and sell the stock wheel online somewhere. I know a guy here in the states who likes the low dust of the tormek and who loves the CBN wheel.

the floor of my shop is practically black sometimes, at least in parts, so It doesn't mean as much to me.

I'd advise looking around or asking for used if you are thinking about one, and the supergrind/2000/T8 used first if you can find one. they are not the budget option, but they do work and they will keep your hands clean while grinding and keep dust out of the air.

they also never really ever break - the US distributor for them has had to replace one, and the one he replaced was being used by a sawmaker to taper saw plates. The only real fault of the older ones is that the arbor can rust to the wheel. Anything newer has a stainless arbor.

The only real reason that they're expensive is because they refuse to make them overseas and they provide good dealer support. It's not a poor man's tool, but it's an honest offering compared to a lot of the junk that's on the market.

(I still like a dry grinder with a really coarse wheel better).

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

bench grinder is probably the cheapest. Cheap grinder, decent rest (you can make it if you have to) and the coarsest wheel you can find - a 24 grit tool room wheel actually works really well.

And a cheap dressing tool.

you can get more expensive options (like CBN wheels and bigger grinders, etc) but CBN doesn't work any better than a 24 grit tool room wheel and they do (CBNs) get tired after a while. They're certainly not up to the challenge of cutting primary bevels on many newly made tools.

....

Let it be said that David probably sharpens more blades in one day than the remainder of the UK and USA combined in a year! It is no wonder that he has worn out a CBN wheel!

David, as you recall, I turned you on to CBN wheels. You went for a 80 grit and I predominantly have used a 180 grit. Since I have used one longer than you, and since my 180 grit should wear faster than your 80 grit, it says something that my wheels are still going strong some 7 years later. But I represent the average Weekend Warrior, albeit one who builds a fair wack of furniture and uses hand tools a lot of the time. What I am saying is that CBN wheels are truly excellent and will last a long time. Plus the dust off them is far less than off a 24 grit white wheel, and they require minimal maintenance. Since there is minimal wear for normal human beings, angle settings on tool rests do not change.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[MikeK]

The only real reason that they're expensive is because they refuse to make them overseas and they provide good dealer support. It's not a poor man's tool, but it's an honest offering compared to a lot of the junk that's on the market.

By "overseas", I assume you mean China. My T8 is clearly marked made in Sweden, which is not overseas for me, but is overseas for the U.S. market. Does Tormek have another factory for North America?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

My Supergrind was rusted to a lump at the end of 10 years. I had stopped using it after 5 years. Too slow and lots of upkeep. The tool rest is excellent, and I use it (BGM-100) on my CBN bench grinder. That is the best of both worlds - speed, accuracy and repeatability.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

By "overseas", I assume you mean China. My T8 is clearly marked made in Sweden, which is not overseas for me, but is overseas for the U.S. market. Does Tormek have another factory for North America?

No, good point - overseas over here generally means going to china or somewhere else that costs much more. Poor choice of words. Sweden is where machines sold in the US are made, too.

Jet made a competing machine that had a lower quality wheel with a higher top speed and variable speed control. It also had very poor quality connectors/electrics and a lot of them failed to work here pretty quickly. At the time, there was a lot of complaining about Tormek's price.

( I just looked - jet's machine is now $489 in the US and is made in china. I'm sure it's OK - but the increases in price are pretty much in line with what jet looks to be doing - my opinion, making up for being bought and sold several times and widening the gap between make price and sold price ).

 

[D_W]

Let it be said that David probably sharpens more blades in one day than the remainder of the UK and USA combined in a year! It is no wonder that he has worn out a CBN wheel!

David, as you recall, I turned you on to CBN wheels. You went for a 80 grit and I predominantly have used a 180 grit. Since I have used one longer than you, and since my 180 grit should wear faster than your 80 grit, it says something that my wheels are still going strong some 7 years later. But I represent the average Weekend Warrior, albeit one who builds a fair wack of furniture and uses hand tools a lot of the time. What I am saying is that CBN wheels are truly excellent and will last a long time. Plus the dust off them is far less than off a 24 grit white wheel, and they require minimal maintenance. Since there is minimal wear for normal human beings, angle settings on tool rests do not change.

Regards from Perth

Derek

yes on the 80 grit. I was aware of the CBN before you showed them and the reason for CBN instead of diamond, but somehow you managed to put the weight on the seesaw hat tipped the balance.

I have two cbn wheels - one is a very cheap flat wheel directly from china ($50) that claimed to be aluminum - it's mild steel, which Is fine. They're all heavy. the other is from woodturner's wonders. They both still work, they've just slowed a lot.

When the 80 grit was new, it cut deeper than a 46 grit pink wheel by a lot.

You're right, even if it's just regular day to day stuff, I'd probably grind something every several hours in the shop. Add in toolmaking and it's hard on a wheel. I don't think they'll ever stop cutting, but both wheels are slower than a 24 grit gray wheel and a little easier to burn tools with, but a 24 grit regular grade tool room wheel is kind of a different animal than most more coarse wheels. It's too bad they're not offered with more regularity. Their density is lower - I don't know why - maybe big particles don't stack as much, and they don't glaze as easily. they do shed grit, though - the CBN wheel doesn't noticeably shed anything, but with raking light, you can see a lot of fine dust going into the air coming off of it.

I guess it depends on what people want. I like to refresh a hollow in 30 seconds to a minute if possible.

 

[CMax]

* grind at 20
* hone at a few degrees more (like 23 if you would like a number that was measured, not chosen - as in, I figured out the method without measuring anything and then took a side profile of a chisel later when measurements were requested)
* back flattened - no ruler trick
* buff chisel bevel side into the buffing wheel holding subjectively about 45 degrees to the wheel, or about 15 degrees or so more than just having the bevel tangent to the buffer

I don't generally use the ruler trick - when you use cap irons on a plane, to get all of the wear out of an iron with the ruler trick, you end up chasing the back bevel bigger and bigger, and it's counterproductive.

Thanks for the clarification, David. I have since found and read a few of your articles that further enlightened me on the method. I'm intrigued to try this out. Having only need of one stone and a buffer is very appealing. This wouldn't add much time or cost to the method I'm used to and seems like it will provide a much-improved result. I have a set of Ashley Iles chisels, and it would be great to have them perform longer between sharpening sessions.

The angles you suggest, would that be the same for both plane and chisels edge?

 

[D_W]

Thanks for the clarification, David. I have since found and read a few of your articles that further enlightened me on the method. I'm intrigued to try this out. Having only need of one stone and a buffer is very appealing. This wouldn't add much time or cost to the method I'm used to and seems like it will provide a much-improved result. I have a set of Ashley Iles chisels, and it would be great to have them perform longer between sharpening sessions.

The angles you suggest, would that be the same for both plane and chisels edge?

You could do the same for plane irons, but I'd buff both sides of the bevel moderately if you do (not on chisels, though!!). It's possible to buff only the bevel side, but I think most people will have trouble doing that as it creates clearance problems.

On bevel up planes like block planes, whatever you honed angle would be to control tearout minus 5%, so if you hone a block plane to 40 degrees, then 35 + heavy buffing instead, and only on one side of the iron just like a chisel.

realistically, I think just honing a plane iron is better because they don't get hammered into things, but you can use a fairly crude stone like an india stone and buff both sides while removing the burr (like regular stanley plane) and sharpness will be improved.

At this point, I lightly buff plane irons after thinning the burr with a few light alternating strokes so that the burr comes off easily. Sort of a replacement for stropping. Chisels and bevel up planes (rarely use the latter, and just have one block plane) get the full one-side treatment.

Ashley iles chisels should pretty much wear you out before they need much if you give them the buffer treatment, and for no increase in effort or sharpness using them.

The first feedback I heard from this method was from a guy cutting seams off of I guess reinforced plastic moulds. He said that he and his employees tried using chisels in the past to pare off the seams because it's easy, but they are immediately dull. With the apex buffed off, they can generally trim seams off and on all day and sharpen once. Cutting composite, polymer or fiber materials wasn't exactly the target audience, but you never know what you'll find. The guy was a woodworking club member in TN and I guess he figured he'd take the method back to his shop and give chisels another go.

 

[yan89]

the square edge jig is really all you need, but if it doesn't come with a diamond truing tool, I'd get that also as the way to make the thing work fast is to skim the dullness off of the wheel regularly.

or you can buy one of the CBN wheels that are made for them and sell the stock wheel online somewhere. I know a guy here in the states who likes the low dust of the tormek and who loves the CBN wheel.

the floor of my shop is practically black sometimes, at least in parts, so It doesn't mean as much to me.

I'd advise looking around or asking for used if you are thinking about one, and the supergrind/2000/T8 used first if you can find one. they are not the budget option, but they do work and they will keep your hands clean while grinding and keep dust out of the air.

they also never really ever break - the US distributor for them has had to replace one, and the one he replaced was being used by a sawmaker to taper saw plates. The only real fault of the older ones is that the arbor can rust to the wheel. Anything newer has a stainless arbor.

The only real reason that they're expensive is because they refuse to make them overseas and they provide good dealer support. It's not a poor man's tool, but it's an honest offering compared to a lot of the junk that's on the market.

(I still like a dry grinder with a really coarse wheel better).

On this 'dry grinder & course wheel' method, are you referring ideally to an 8 inch CBN wheel used without a water bath?

 

[D_W]

On this 'dry grinder & course wheel' method, are you referring ideally to an 8 inch CBN wheel used without a water bath?

Dry grinder and coarse wheel would be for a high speed grinder. I have both 6 and 8 inch full speed grinders, but I don't know what luck others would have with 8 inch full speed. You trade speed for pressure as getting a heavy hand on an 8" full speed grinder is a fast heat maker, so a coarse wheel and light pressure with discretion makes it faster. without discretion it makes it burn things faster.

The CBNs that I have are on a 6" full speed grinder.

I don't think the grinder matters that much if following the oft-given advice of 6" full speed or 8" half (or variable) speed. I like the full speed 8" grinders for heavy work - mine are not high priced grinders (the big ones), but they are not the lower powered 600-800 watt or whatever grinders offered to woodworkers - they're tool room grinders with something like 1350 watts, so they can make use of the power at high speed for actual toolmaking, and one is tied up using a dry high speed belt attachment.

The 6" grinder that I have is just the lower powered baldor version, and it's a better grinder than the one I started with, but I have to admit that I don't think it saves any time over the original $38 grinder.

As far as the tormek goes, I believe that's also used dry with CBN - maybe it can be used either way, but since the CBN doesn't grade and clog like the aluminum oxide wheel, it can be used dry. Albeit likely with higher pressure - it's been a long time since I gave my older tormek to a friend who expressed interest in it. if my calculations are correct, a full speed 8" grinder runs about 126 feet a second and the tormek runs about 4.

The tormek either the gray wheel (which is very good quality) or CBN - I had others that I found for bargain/clearance (the fine wheel, the black wheel) and I guess the black wheel would be OK but it has to be graded by the diamond truing tool. The waterstone wheel was a waste, but I got it for half price and sold it later for something more than I paid for it. Tormek sells the system as a grinding and honing system, but it falls short honing if you have even basic hand sharpening skills. It's a grinder.

I don't know what point grinders become really dangerous, but a catch on a high powered 8" grinder that breaks the wheel would be very violent. I've grown to like the wheel speed, but it does by feel seem to be big enough with a heavy wide wheel to suggest it could be a bomb if something got trapped between the rest and wheel while running full speed.

 

[CMax]

I understand now, thanks, David! I'll report back my findings when I get time, though I'm sure it'll be of no surprise to you, given all your experience with this method.

 

[D_W]

Should be easier to get right than a regular method on chisels. I've only been able to present it once in person, but the group that tried it seemed to all have success on the first go. Not a group of dedicated hand tool workers by any means from what I could tell.

buffing both sides of the bevel on a cheaper lockback pocket knife will be shocking. Not because of sharpness so much as how long cheap soft knives will remain sharp if you can prevent the edges from deflecting.

 

[Ttrees]

* grind at 20
* hone at a few degrees more (like 23 if you would like a number that was measured, not chosen - as in, I figured out the method without measuring anything and then took a side profile of a chisel later when measurements were requested)
* back flattened - no ruler trick
* buff chisel bevel side into the buffing wheel holding subjectively about 45 degrees to the wheel, or about 15 degrees or so more than just having the bevel tangent to the buffer

I don't generally use the ruler trick - when you use cap irons on a plane, to get all of the wear out of an iron with the ruler trick, you end up chasing the back bevel bigger and bigger, and it's counterproductive.

I've seen you buff the flat minutely also, care to clarify...should it make sense?
Just wondering if you changed your mind about that, or happened to forget to add that little snippet.
Cheers
Tom

 

[D_W]

I've seen you buff the flat minutely also, care to clarify...should it make sense?
Just wondering if you changed your mind about that, or happened to forget to add that little snippet.
Cheers
Tom

I do that to chase any burr that's been turned to the back off.

If someone has a buffer around, this will make sense, if not it may not - this part I'm about to type specifically.

The buffer has very little cutting power on the corner of a stitched wheel, so it won't round a back much. The center of the wheel with a tool pushed in and it will do quite a bit.

So my preference at this point is to feed the tool across the center of the wheel on the "cut side" and then clean off the back side with a light pass across the corner of the buffing wheel both to remove any remaining burr - there really shouldn't be any - and to clean off any line of compound and swarf that may stick to the side opposite the bevel.

 

[yan89]

Dry grinder and coarse wheel would be for a high speed grinder. I have both 6 and 8 inch full speed grinders, but I don't know what luck others would have with 8 inch full speed. You trade speed for pressure as getting a heavy hand on an 8" full speed grinder is a fast heat maker, so a coarse wheel and light pressure with discretion makes it faster. without discretion it makes it burn things faster.

The CBNs that I have are on a 6" full speed grinder.

I don't think the grinder matters that much if following the oft-given advice of 6" full speed or 8" half (or variable) speed. I like the full speed 8" grinders for heavy work - mine are not high priced grinders (the big ones), but they are not the lower powered 600-800 watt or whatever grinders offered to woodworkers - they're tool room grinders with something like 1350 watts, so they can make use of the power at high speed for actual toolmaking, and one is tied up using a dry high speed belt attachment.

The 6" grinder that I have is just the lower powered baldor version, and it's a better grinder than the one I started with, but I have to admit that I don't think it saves any time over the original $38 grinder.

As far as the tormek goes, I believe that's also used dry with CBN - maybe it can be used either way, but since the CBN doesn't grade and clog like the aluminum oxide wheel, it can be used dry. Albeit likely with higher pressure - it's been a long time since I gave my older tormek to a friend who expressed interest in it. if my calculations are correct, a full speed 8" grinder runs about 126 feet a second and the tormek runs about 4.

The tormek either the gray wheel (which is very good quality) or CBN - I had others that I found for bargain/clearance (the fine wheel, the black wheel) and I guess the black wheel would be OK but it has to be graded by the diamond truing tool. The waterstone wheel was a waste, but I got it for half price and sold it later for something more than I paid for it. Tormek sells the system as a grinding and honing system, but it falls short honing if you have even basic hand sharpening skills. It's a grinder.

I don't know what point grinders become really dangerous, but a catch on a high powered 8" grinder that breaks the wheel would be very violent. I've grown to like the wheel speed, but it does by feel seem to be big enough with a heavy wide wheel to suggest it could be a bomb if something got trapped between the rest and wheel while running full speed.

Sorry to continue questioning, but when you say 'full speed' 6 inch grinder, is there a set speed it should (or shouldn't) exceed? I'd rather not drop £4-500 on a Tormek before I know i'll get benefit out of it, but there's grinders available new on a certain brazilian rainforest themed site for £40 (Einhell TH-BG 150 2980RPM), £55 (Clarke CBG6RP 2900RPM) or £83 (Record RPBG6 2850 RPM) which wouldn't seem like as much of an investment in the short term