School woodwork

[Nick Gibbs]

We want to do more to encourage woodwork and making things in schools. In fact we're thinking about publishing a special supplement for schools. I'm after feedback from any parents or grandparents who have children aged 13-18 who are doing design/technology/woodwork at school.

I'd like to know how your children/grandchildren get on, what the classes are like, and how we might be able to help.

Thanks

Nick

 

[Lord Nibbo]

We want to do more to encourage woodwork and making things in schools. In fact we're thinking about publishing a special supplement for schools. I'm after feedback from any parents or grandparents who have children aged 13-18 who are doing design/technology/woodwork at school.

I'd like to know how your children/grandchildren get on, what the classes are like, and how we might be able to help.

Thanks

Nick

Nick I almost posted in that other thread, here is what I thought about suggesting.


A competition to build a canoe or small sail boat (mirror dinghy size) by schools or groups with upper age limits. Your magazine provide instructions of stage builds over say three or four editions, the winner picked by the magazine for best reproduction in following the plans & instructions. No need for any flash or expensive prize just a nice award given to the best school or group.

 

[Aled Dafis]

Nick

This is a subject that's very close to my heart.

I am a teacher in a secondary school in West Wales, and altough I dont actually teach Design and Technology, I have close links to the department as I teach Egineering (NVQ) in the workshop next door. Another of my colleagues also teaches building in a purpose built classroom (shed) :wink:.

In fact, I believe that D+T and Enginering complement each other really well, as D+T covers much of the design and basic making aspects, whereas the Engineering NVQ covers the making aspect in much greater detail.

The NVQ qualification is much more prescribed than D+T, in that the pupils have a set number of jobs to complete. All "Fitting" jobs require a tolerance of +- 0.25mm, and the "Sheetmetal" jobs are assessed to a tolerance of +-3mm if thaey are to achieve an NVQ Level 2 qualifiaction, which is equivalent to 5 GCSE's grade A* to C.

Some of the skills learnt include Measuring and marking out (to a tolerance), drilling and tapping, cutting, joining metals (spotwelding, riveting, self securing joints etc.), filing accurately, working with sheet metal (cutting, folding, developments, bend allowances etc.), reading and understanding drawings, assessing risk, working safely etc. etc. Also, as with all practical subjects, we cover literacy, numeracy and problem solving as we go along.

I firmly believe that Schools, and in particular the more practical/Vocational subjects have a very important role to play in the development of the next generation of woodworkers, engineers and craftsmen/women, I just hope that I can do a little bit to encourage them down that path.

Cheers

Aled

P.S.
Nick, I've PM'd you my Tel. No. if you'd like a chat.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I've clocked your number Aled, and will call. The important thing, it seems to me, is that we teach practical subjects in schools in a way that actually leads to their sustainable use into adulthood, either as a living or for DIY or as an interest. The same, to be honest, is true of academic studies. I've used very little of the degree in economics I gained, and had learnt how to learn much earlier than university, at the brilliant school I attended. I was very fortunate.

The challenge is inspiring schoolchildren to learn for the sake of learning and to do for the sake of doing (which sounds wooly and idealistic) but I think it is what defines us as humans. Surely we're all discovering now that buying for the sake of buying gets us nowhere, indeed it turns us into robots who gradually lose our sense of freedom and individuality.

Intriguingly I think this all relates back to where this thread started, Frugal Woodwork. It relates back to a time of austerity when people had to do things for themselves because of necessity. You don't have to be a miser to be frugal, I think. It's about being resourceful and having an optimism that we can resolve the challenges we face ourselves.

Nick

 

[marcus]

Surely we're all discovering now that buying for the sake of buying gets us nowhere

Think you might have wandered into the wrong forum Nick :wink:

Seriously though, this sounds like a good initiative - have you come across Doug Stowe?

http://wisdomofhands.blogspot.com/

Cheers

Marcus

 

[marcus]

The challenge is inspiring schoolchildren to learn for the sake of learning and to do for the sake of doing (which sounds wooly and idealistic)

Doesn't sound wooly and idealistic to me, sounds like an essential part of education. If you know how to learn, and love learning, then training for your chosen profession or trade later is easy. But you'll have a fight on your hands. In my experience the entire UK education system is focussed at doing the exact opposite. Hence why I'm no longer a teacher.....

 

[neilyweely]

Nick
I have worked with special needs groups in woodwork, and the 'hands-on' and 'touchy feely' aspect to woodwork is very good for ALL children. When I was at school (Not SO long ago) we had a woodwork teacher, Mr Moore, who taught me more about maths, language and social skills in woodwork than I learnt in the dedicated lessons. Mainly because I listened to him, but.....

Will speak to daughter (12) and ask for info this evening. Nice one Nick.

Neil

 

[Harbo]

I think my 2 elder grandchildren aged 15 and 13 do not get the opportunity to do woodworking - they do cookery instead?

Back in the 50's having failed my 11 plus (only 1 boy from my school did!) I passed my 13 plus and I went to a brand new County Secondary which, as well as the usual subjects, did Woodwork, Metalwork, Art and Technical Drawing to "O" Level.
With woodworking, I think a more general DIY based curriculum would have been more beneficial to the majority of the pupils (all boys school)
Basic and safe use of tools - OK, but instead of secret mitres etc. perhaps something on basic Joinery, Brick laying, Home Electrics, Decorating etc. etc.
Something more practical and suitable to the general person, leaving the more specialised techniques to those who want to pursue that later as a career or a hobby?

Rod

 

[woodyone]

I am at school at the moment and in my last year studying resistant materials and I throughly enjoy my lessons, even though i think i am the only real person in there that actually cares to do the lesson properly.

I feel that if the syllabus encouraged woodworking to be seen as a future profession it is more likely to encourage students to consider further education i.e joinery or cabinetmaking and not just at a carpentry/ building level, it would encourage people to take the course more seriously.


I hope that this is of help.

Woody.

 

[wizer]

That's an interesting point Woodyone. If there was ever a topic I was interested in at school it was impossible to take anything because you'd have at least 4 lads disrupting the class. I only recall a couple of teachers who could handle a classroom of boys and keep them at very least quiet. Not sure what the answer is to that one. I tend to blame the area the school is in. Which is why I really hope this recession doesn't last long and we can move somewhere a bit nicer.

 

[woodbloke]

It's now over a decade since I gave up teaching but the last thing I was doing was so called 'resistant materials' I seem to recollect that there was still a lot of reasonable woodwork going on in my 'shop(s)...I ran three - on my own - Rob

 

[woodyone]

I do sort of agree with you rob but just to clarify that there is a reasonable amount of woodwork going on in schools. But the problem i see is that there is no real regard for the complexity of the subject. the course requirements are relatively basic and do not pose enough of a challenge for it to demand respect from pupils in turn discouraging them to study at higher level.

Woody.

 

[woodbloke]

I do sort of agree with you rob but just to clarify that there is a reasonable amount of woodwork going on in schools. But the problem i see is that there is no real regard for the complexity of the subject. the course requirements are relatively basic and do not pose enough of a challenge for it to demand respect from pupils in turn discouraging them to study at higher level.

Woody.

Agreed. When the NC covers all the aspects of 'Designing & Making' in wood, metal and plastic and students are expected these days to do about 25 :wink: other GCSE's besides D&T, things have to be stretched rather thin. Additionally, when you consider that a huge amount of any Yr10 or Yr11 project is bloody paperwork, it's little wonder. I still have both my son's and daughter's GCSE D&T design folders which in each case were about 60 pages of A3 scribblings and drawings...good job they had a bit of 'help' :wink: - Rob...still a bit jaundiced

 

[Paul Chapman]

I really don't think there is any substitute for teaching kids the basic skills, like they used to do in woodwork and metalwork classes. The nearest thing I've seen in recent times is the series "The Apprentice" by John Bullar in F&C.

The point about learning all the basic joints and tool control is that you can go on from there and make almost anything (OK, with a bit of practice). I learnt woodworking at school back in the 1950s. When I got married in 1970 and started buying houses, I was able to pick up where I'd left off and make fitted kitchens and furniture. Most of what I do, even today, is based on the skills I learnt back in the 1950s.

Even if you want to go on and work in a factory using heavy machinery, those basic skills will still be relevant (it's not for nothing that people joining the Barnsley workshops have to become proficient in hand tool use before they move on to the machines).

I do wish that educationalists wouldn't keep on trying to re-invent the wheel. It was invented a long time ago - it worked then and it still does.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodyone]

I am about halfway through my DT folder at the moment and only recently started actually making it. But it is true that there is alot of coursework that goes with the subject which does take up alot of your making time. but when i mean about challenging the student, i mean in a way the project that they choose to do. the majority of my class pick things like bird-tables and bird-boxes, nothing that really gives a chance for the student to do something a little bit different. For my project i picked to design and make a bedside table, which was a massive project in comparison to the other students in my class. The reason i picked to do this is that i wanted to challenge myself so that i personally would learn things from this course, i think the my other class members should be encouraged to do this too.

One other this i found very interesting at my school is that down by the DT department they have put up all of the old pictures of the past final pieces on the wall going to as late as about 1990. I found it really interesting to see the comparison to what they made then to what they make now. At one end of the wall they would be making garden chairs, tables and all well made. But at the other end of the wall you would see the quality dramatically decrease and the projects getting far smaller and less challenging, which i find quite sad.

Woody.

 

[Paul Chapman]

One other this i found very interesting at my school is that down by the DT department they have put up all of the old pictures of the past final pieces on the wall going to as late as about 1990. I found it really interesting to see the comparison to what they made then to what they make now. At one end of the wall they would be making garden chairs, tables and all well made. But at the other end of the wall you would see the quality dramatically decrease and the projects getting far smaller and less challenging, which i find quite sad.

Exactly

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I really don't think there is any substitute for teaching kids the basic skills... The point about learning all the basic joints and tool control is that you can go on from there and make almost anything (OK, with a bit of practice).
Paul

Very true Paul. The first making project students on my Foundation Degree course do is a Hand Production Techniques project. Hand planing a board flat and squaring an edge. Marking out all the joints (dovetails) and cutting them by hand. 95% of the students that start the course have little or no idea how to tune, sharpen, or use a handtool to start with.

By the end of the ten week module, some of the basic hand woodworking skills develop in the learners up to a rudimentary level, or better, ie, good enough to do some of the primary tasks such as sharpening a plane or chisel, cutting reasonably closely, or better to an accurately measured and marked line, etc. Some learners have developed enough skill by then to work neatly, crisply and very accurately. But at that point they can only work at a pace five to ten times slower than a highly proficient, practiced, knowledgeable and skilled maker such as myself, and they also make a mass of other errors, particularly decision making, technical choice and task management errors.

The early 'up close and dirty' experience with hand tools and wood serve up invaluable lessons for the future-- the knowledge transfers to machine woodworking along with a better understanding of how wood behaves when it is cut, shaped, manipulated, and formed.

I've never taken on a student from school with a GCSE in Resistant Materials that really knows how to use any piece of woodworking equipment. Some have experienced very limited exposure to a few hand tools for instance, but they can't really use them. However, if they are truly keen to learn they have every opportunity to do so, and many on the course I run soon develop real skill and ability in both hand woodworking and machine woodworking along with a pile of other skills in related areas, eg, AutoCAD, design techniques and presentation, timber technology, history, etc. Slainte.

 

[The Shark]

Nick,
I'm away from home at the moment, but when I get back (weather permitting!) at the weekend, I will ask my 2 boys (age 14 and 13).
It might involve an apple for teacher, or is it a pint for dad? :lol:

Malc

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Hi Woody

Good point about showing examples of past work. Does your school have a sixth form? I know that schools with sixth forms are able to exhibit the work of older students to inspire the younger ones. Providing role models and something to aim at must be important in motivating students less inclined to learn than yourself.

Nick

 

[woodyone]

No my school does not have a sixth-form, but i do agree that it would help to inspire and encourage the younger students.

I think that another reason that my classmates don't want to study woodwork at a higher level is that colleges mainly advertise courses like english, math, science and meaning woodwork doesn't even seem to be a option that they would consider.It took me quite a while to find a college that had the woodworking course that i wanted and it is about a 2 hour drive from where i live now, So i think that if more colleges did woodwork as further education it would become more popular and encourage more younger people to do it at GCSE level or even below.

Woody.