SawStop, stops on contact with skin is coming to Europe soon!

[deema]

In the UK, I’m only aware of three brands with flesh sensing technology. Altendorf with Hand Guard, a camera based system, and Festool / SawStop. I class the last two together as they share the same parent company, but it’s not the same system. Felder use their PCS system, which like Altendorf doesn’t damage the blade when activated. I know Bosch had the Reaxx saw, but to the best of my knowledge, it’s not sold in the UK or indeed world wide as I believe it’s stopped manufacture.


https://www.felder-group.com/en-gb/pcs

 

[Eshmiel]

PS Here's a vid from Altendorf about a different approach to hand-sensing tech. An Altendorf is rather expensive and the system they've developed matches that. However, its not hard to imagine a much less expensive implementation of their optical hand-sensing system for much less expensive saws.

 

[Sideways]

ANYthing?
.... etc

I have so many issues with that post that I don't know whether to splutter or laugh !

It is one of the least considered posts I've read on UKW in some while.


It is ridiculous to try and conflate a sawstop site saw with an alterdorf /martin/panhans/felder panel saw costing over 50x the price.

It is ridiculous to imply that safety measures shouldn't be offered because it will make some users complacent. Seat belts, airbags, ABS anyone ?

Please show us the numbers to justify the wild assertions you are making about the sawstop tech malfunctioning, and lastly please show me where I can buy that Bosch saw you mention ?

 

[Jacob]

PS Here's a vid from Altendorf about a different approach to hand-sensing tech. An Altendorf is rather expensive and the system they've developed matches that. However, its not hard to imagine a much less expensive implementation of their optical hand-sensing system for much less expensive saws.

Actually there's a much better method of "hand position sensing" which is to look at them with your eyes. With practice you can follow them wherever they go!
Maybe these assorted gadgets are intended for blind people? Otherwise it seems to me that anybody who needs them should not be anywhere near a machine in the first place.

 

[Jacob]

Actually there's a much better method of "hand position sensing" which is to look at them with your eyes. With practice you can follow them wherever they go!
Maybe these assorted gadgets are intended for blind people? Otherwise it seems to me that anybody who needs them should not be anywhere near a machine in the first place.

"optical hand position sensing" that is

 

[Sideways]

Maybe these assorted gadgets are intended for blind people? Otherwise it seems to me that anybody who needs them should not be anywhere near a machine in the first place.

Arrogant fool.

 

[Sideways]

As @deema mentioned, we saw the two sawstop saws at a trade show in Bolton.
These are not the cabinet saw. They are saws that meet the needs of compactness and or portability first and foremost.
They compete against dewalt, bosch, metabo, makita, et al.
Tables are cast alloy, chassis on the smaller saw is steel tube with sheet steel panels welded, for robustness with light weight, on the larger saw it is a substantial plastic moulding just like the equivalent bosch.
A few photos below just pick on details that caught my eye.
The table insert is latching but very quick to release

The saws rise from below table to full height in a single turn of the wheel and the red ring simple squeezes against the wheel to release the saw mechanism for fast adjustment and then reengages when you release.

The angle of the rip fence to the blade is easily adjusted. Factory set is parallel to the blade. For ripping solid timber, a small angle should be dialled in to deduce the risk of kickback


The fence itself locks and releases easily. It has a roller at the tail end for easy sliding.

The rigidity feels OK when locked up but this is relative to the class of saw. There is a little play at the rear end of the fence if you push on it sideways. At the midpoint where the timber will meet the blade, there is much less deflection.

Power switch with clear red and green lights to show the status of the sawstop system

 

[Inspector]

and lastly please show me where I can buy that Bosch saw you mention ?

When the Bosch Reaxx was introduced in the US SawStop took them to court for violating their patent. Bosch lost and couldn't sell them in the US anymore. Bosch brought them to Canada and sold them for a few years and then stopped. I presume it was when stock ran out. Cartridges are still available for them. The cartridge was different in that it had 2 compressed air cylinders. One of which dropped the blade without stopping it. You reset the saw and had a second use before the cartridge needed to be replaced. I remember vaguely that there were some complaints about it having interference problems from cell phones causing the brake to activate. Don't hold me to that because it's been a while.

Pete

 

[Eshmiel]

I have so many issues with that post that I don't know whether to splutter or laugh !

It is one of the least considered posts I've read on UKW in some while.


It is ridiculous to try and conflate a sawstop site saw with an alterdorf /martin/panhans/felder panel saw costing over 50x the price.

It is ridiculous to imply that safety measures shouldn't be offered because it will make some users complacent. Seat belts, airbags, ABS anyone ?

Please show us the numbers to justify the wild assertions you are making about the sawstop tech malfunctioning, and lastly please show me where I can buy that Bosch saw you mention ?

Them Sawstops are not inexpensive for what they are (a rather poorly designed traditional Unisaw with a very expensive safety add-on). Add the cost of the various operations of the braking thingy and the ruined saw blades and ....

But the point of the Altendorf example is not to compare the saws themselves (and their prices) but the safety design, illustrating that there are other far less destructive methods of dropping a saw blade away from a finger than the Sawstop device. Moreover, the alternatives seem to have several other advantages, such as not being triggered by damp wood, a bit of metal etc. and showing green/amber/red lights to warn when a hand is in a safe/approaching-dangerous or actually dangerous position prior to any safety device triggering. (Thus educating a user about safe & dangerous hand positions when using table saws of any kind).

How many spurious Sawstop triggerings? Difficult to say as who collects the stats? But have a look at US WW forums in particular (Sawstop is most used in the US and has been for a decade or more) and you'll find many complaints about both the spurious triggerings and the cost of each one in terms of ruined blade and braking device replacement.

*************
You don't recognise the existence of risk compensation, then? I'm surprised as its a well studied and documented phenomenon with every kind of safety device. Rather than me point at one or more of the many info sites on the matter, look it up yourself and get educated.

You may notice also that many US vids and magazine articles STILL show tablesaws being used without guards, push sticks, featherboards or even a riving knife. "Sawstop will save me" is often the attitude expressed by fans ,as they remove the guard and riving knife "because they're in the way".

 

[Eshmiel]

Arrogant fool.

Now then - perhaps you should moderate yourself!

Jacob has a point albeit expressed in his rather definite fashion. Understanding the dangers of a tablesaw and being educated to avoid them is a necessary thing, really. It may not be sufficient, hence guards, riving knives et al but having safety devices is NOT a full substitute for understanding within the user of potential dangers.

I'll mention it again - look up "risk compensation".

 

[TRITON]

They say a picture speaks a thousand words ...

 

[JSW]

There's still tape and strapping on the box, so what is the picture trying to say?

 

[Sideways]

I'll mention it again - look up "risk compensation".

It's very simple.
Risk compensation isn't a reason not to introduce improvements.

 

[Eshmiel]

It's very simple.
Risk compensation isn't a reason not to introduce improvements.

It's very simple.
Risk compensation isn't a reason not to introduce improvements.

I'm not suggesting that it is. I am suggesting that:

i) some improvements are better designed than others, especially if they address more issues and don't have expensive ongoing usage costs.

ii) improvements need to be used with an understanding of the true risk reductions rather than larger imagined reductions that lead to a degree of carelessness that overcomes the extra risk reduction provided by the improved safety tech.

A well-known example: many drivers rightly feel a lot safer with seat belts, air bags, side running lights, ABS brakes and so forth. Some drive much faster and with less attention because they feel safer. This can increase their crash rate, although the safety tech still reduces their injury rate. But it doesn't reduce the injury rate to others outside the effective radius of their safety tech. They mow down more pedestrians and cyclists, for example. And cause more damage not just to their own car but to the cars and infrastructure of others.

 

[Eshmiel]

There's still tape and strapping on the box, so what is the picture trying to say?

His tablesaw "accident" persuaded him to buy a Sawstop. Sadly, he couldn't afford an Altendorf.

He's about to have another "accident" because he can't steer that geet big gas-guzzler properly due to his bandaged mit. He'll next be seen in a Swasticar self-driving vehicle.

 

[JSW]

Ah. Not taking it back due to it being faulty then, or some such

I'm inclined to agree with @Jacob in that case then, a Sawstop isn't going to solve bad practise. Bit of a Catch-22 really.

 

[Ed Weber]

ANYthing?

Did you know that other saws also have flesh-sensing and blade-dropping facilities to cater to the careless? The difference is that they don't destroy the blade with a spurious blade "brake" of expensive-to-replace soft metal.

Bosch have a system that uses a small cartridge to lower the blade in an instant if a finger is detected. The cartridge has to be replaced but it costs far less than a Sawstop cartridge; and the blade is undamaged.

Altendorf and others have a system that detects finger-to-blade contact earlier than via a touch, doesn't over-react to damp wood and similar not-a-finger things and does no damage to the blade. It doesn't seem to require a new brake, cartridge or anything else. The user just raises the blade again and resumes operating.

**********
The design of the Sawstop seems to luxuriate in the need for lots of expensive new stuff if their brake goes off. That brake also goes off in all sorts of non-dangerous circumstances, from damp wood to random firings, each one costing a hundred or so dollars to fix. To me it looks like something designed primarily to make money, with safety a necessary but not sufficient condition for making and selling it.

*****************

There is also the matter of risk compensation. Those with "failsafe" devices protecting them from their own incompetence will tend to become more incompetent because something else compensates for their lack. The alternative is the "spiked steering wheel" kind of device. The more dangerous the effects of incompetence with a device, the more careful most users of it will be.

Sadly, there is the not-most-users group of dafties who need failsafe devices for everything no matter how obviously dangerous otherwise. But the rise of failsafe things tends to increase the portion of users who remain incompetent at keeping themselves safe. Consider the apprentice who moves from a Sawstop shop to one with machines lacking the flesh sensor et al. The risks and outcomes of blade-bite may not be as prevalent in their consciousness as they should be ....... .

This is ONE of the reasons I am not a SawStop fan.
There are other brands with non-destructive technologies that work just as well, better IMO.
The SS technology is over 20+ years old. You could say it's time tested but you could also say it's old.

 

[Bingy man]

I think it’s a bit sad of anyone who would sneer at another fellow woodworker due to their choice of table saw or brand of mitre saw regardless of what safety features it has or doesent have . @Eshmiel not all drivers suddenly driver like crazed zombies and start mowing down pedestrians at will. Far more dangerous are the hundreds of thousands of drivers that use their phone whilst driving, or the high number of drivers that now seem to ignore red lights , no entry signs etc . Nobody is forcing you to buy a saw stop or any other safety device- smoke alarm , c/o alarm ,intruder alarm but how many of us have these devices..???

 

[Sideways]

This is ONE of the reasons I am not a SawStop fan.
There are other brands with non-destructive technologies that work just as well, better IMO.
The SS technology is over 20+ years old. You could say it's time tested but you could also say it's old.

But you cannot ignore the costs of these alternatives.
A technology that is simply too expensive for ordinary users really isn't an alternative. It could, possibly, become one, but only if a manufacturer steps up and takes the commercial risk to try and develop it.

Felder don't make mass market benchtop tablesaws so their PCS system is not an option unless someone steps up and licenses it from them, and finds a way to transplant tech from a $40,000 saw to a $2,000 saw and still have a profit margin left.

And the following quote about the Altendorf system is from sawstop's opponents in their home market :

This overhead camera position system is not suitable for small transportable benchtop table saws, and the additional cost of the technology is reported to be over $15,000.

 

[Bingy man]

a good friend of mine works for a local but well established coach company. Their coaches often transport kids to and from various venues and other schools related events. They also take 1,000s of people to holiday destinations etc etc . When the driver gets in his seat he has to effectively perform a breathalyser . If alcohol is detected the coach can not start , the manager is automatically notified and the police are called and the driver is duly arrested. If the same technology was available for cars , lorries and other public transport and drugs or alcohol would prevent the engine from starting how many deaths could be prevented. Would you pay a premium price for such tech . Now the majority of us have enough self control and the sense to know this is dangerous and we just don’t do it but clearly many people do . If your son, daughters, nieces and nephews were to borrow your car would they adhere to the same ethics and the driver refrain from drugs or alcohol. The other point regarding sawstop is as said if the tech is 20 years old ? How many court cases have their been where the tech has failed and the operator has suffered a catastrophic injury or death because the system failed . If the answer is 0 or the system was disabled and unable to operate then we can at least say it’s reliable and it does indeed work . Now wether you are a complete moron , have had part of your brain removed or you are simply safeguarding yourself against an unforeseen accident ( seizure, fit , stroke , heart attack, brain bleed or plain old stupidity because you allowed yourself to be distracted ) then where is the actual problem. If you don’t want one then why deter others from owning one.