American power tools and the effect of tariffs

[668hrn]

Hi
Most USA power tools are designed in USA but made in China. If I am buying these products what is going to be effect on a UK based consumer?

 

[Spectric]

Lets not overlook Canada as they produce Jessem products and Veritas. The American names that spring to mind are Infinity router cutters and tools, Woodpeckers, and Kreg.

The person I dare say with more info is going to be @Peter Sefton at Woodworkers Workshop who a big supplier of these brands.

 

[Orraloon]

Unless the UK puts tariffs on China then buying from UK outlets things should not change. Buying from the USA is a complete unknown. I for sure will not be buying anything from the USA as I dont intend to support a Fascist state in shape or form.

 

[Eshmiel]

Unless the UK puts tariffs on China then buying from UK outlets things should not change. Buying from the USA is a complete unknown. I for sure will not be buying anything from the USA as I dont intend to support a Fascist state in shape or form.

Whilst sympathising with your anti-fascist sentiments we have to ask: is the USA yet truly fascist? Even if it is, in some sense, should we penalise all those within it making good stuff but not themselves being "fascist"?

It's no easy question. It'll become even more difficult to answer as more and more nation-states go, if not fascist, totalitarian in some other fashion. Many already have, despite the façade of voting or some other veneer of democracy over the reality. Even our own nation-state is far less of a democracy than we tend to assume. In reality its owned by, and run for, Big Business and Finance Capitalism.

There's an old saying that trade overcomes nastier potential relationships such as war. Trade is a kind of diplomacy and perhaps also a sort of faith that might eventually turn to trust (a belief that conditions everywhere can be made better by trade with an eventual proof that they are).

Still, it is difficult not to feel a large and visceral disgust at the antics of the Repuglican Party and those who voted the creatures into even more power than they already exercised via their long-standing oligarchy. (Somewhat worse than the Democrat oligarchy, which has been bad enough). But then who are we British to get on our high horses? The things done in our name by various governments have not all been sweetness and light, eh?

 

[Inspector]

A tariff is born by the people that buy the goods. If the UK decides to put a tariff on US made goods you pay the extra costs. If the US puts a tariff on UK goods the Americans pay to get it. The overall effect is to slow or stop trade and the population on both sides gets hurt until other sources are found or you make the products yourself. If I express my opinions about the Americans it will get deleted.

Pete

 

[Orraloon]

Whilst sympathising with your anti-fascist sentiments we have to ask: is the USA yet truly fascist? Even if it is, in some sense, should we penalise all those within it making good stuff but not themselves being "fascist"?

It's no easy question. It'll become even more difficult to answer as more and more nation-states go, if not fascist, totalitarian in some other fashion. Many already have, despite the façade of voting or some other veneer of democracy over the reality. Even our own nation-state is far less of a democracy than we tend to assume. In reality its owned by, and run for, Big Business and Finance Capitalism.

There's an old saying that trade overcomes nastier potential relationships such as war. Trade is a kind of diplomacy and perhaps also a sort of faith that might eventually turn to trust (a belief that conditions everywhere can be made better by trade with an eventual proof that they are).

Still, it is difficult not to feel a large and visceral disgust at the antics of the Repuglican Party and those who voted the creatures into even more power than they already exercised via their long-standing oligarchy. (Somewhat worse than the Democrat oligarchy, which has been bad enough). But then who are we British to get on our high horses? The things done in our name by various governments have not all been sweetness and light, eh?

Over 80% of the population seem to be against what is being done in their name so I do feel sorry for them. The current whitehouse team however seem to be aiming at turning the whole world into a basket case in as short a time as possible. Now is not the time to be rewarding those mad men in any way. The Canadian response is the way to go. Meet tariff with tariff and boycott most other things. If they get too comfortable lounging around that oval office then the poor (and getting poorer) 80% will have no chance of ever evicting them.
I just hope it is not too late already
Regards
John

 

[okeydokey]

Slightly off topic but I have decided for the foreseeable future not to purchase any American items and to concentrate my limited buying power to buying British (anything) whenever possible. That even applies to simple things like buying British apples in Tesco rather than imports.
Thinking about it this is not really anything new to me.

Wasn't there a Buy British Campaign designed to help British producers/manufacturers many moons ago?

 

[Noel]

Lets not overlook Canada as they produce Jessem products and Veritas. The American names that spring to mind are Infinity router cutters and tools, Woodpeckers, and Kreg.

The person I dare say with more info is going to be @Peter Sefton at Woodworkers Workshop who a big supplier of these brands.

Doesn't Lee Valley ship to the US and internationally from a facility in upstate NY? They used to but perhaps that has changed.
@Inspector ??? Any idea?

 

[Jake]

I know that a majority of Americans are not this, but the world has no choice but to treat tbe US under Trump as a proto-fascist country. I seriousy doubt they are coming back from this. Unless the mid-terms produce something extraordinary, US democacy is done for, until the decent people wake up,

 

[Inspector]

Doesn't Lee Valley ship to the US and internationally from a facility in upstate NY? They used to but perhaps that has changed.
@Inspector ??? Any idea?

LV has an express pick up store in Reno and I believe they have a warehouse or two in the US that they ship orders from. Unless something changed recently. Ultimately what they do in the future is anyones guess.

Unless I have no choice I am not buying American goods even if it means I have to do without or pay more for local. Canceled a camping trip to Washington/Oregon and will camp in Canada only this and perhaps future years. Even though it means not seeing a long time friend, who is not a supporter of trumpty dumpty.

Pete

 

[Noel]

LV has an express pick up store in Reno and I believe they have a warehouse or two in the US that they ship orders from. Unless something changed recently. Ultimately what they do in the future is anyones guess.

Unless I have no choice I am not buying American goods even if it means I have to do without or pay more for local. Canceled a camping trip to Washington/Oregon and will camp in Canada only this and perhaps future years. Even though it means not seeing a long time friend, who is not a supporter of trumpty dumpty.

Pete

Thanks Pete.

 

[Eshmiel]

Over 80% of the population seem to be against what is being done in their name so I do feel sorry for them. The current whitehouse team however seem to be aiming at turning the whole world into a basket case in as short a time as possible. Now is not the time to be rewarding those mad men in any way. The Canadian response is the way to go. Meet tariff with tariff and boycott most other things. If they get too comfortable lounging around that oval office then the poor (and getting poorer) 80% will have no chance of ever evicting them.
I just hope it is not too late already
Regards
John

Understandable feelings. And it does seem that the current US "government" is intent on a general destruction as some sort of proof that they are macho and have a Big Stick with a willingness to use it.

But tariffs, trade wars and sanctions have all proven to punish not so much the regime but the poor sods of the lower orders. They also have an effect on those lower orders of increasing enmity towards foreigners, who the regime inevitably promote as the cause of all ills suffered by the lower orders due to the evil sanctioning foreigners pooh-poohing their goods and services.

In short, punishing the general population via trade wars and economic isolation often leads to real wars. Its what demagogues like Trump do, the world over.

An alternative approach might be to form a relationship with the more vigorous members of the lower orders, especially those not keen on the mad regime's attempts to ruin their health, wealth and happiness. Be selective. Reject the Swasticar but maybe buy an LN (although I prefer Veritas meself, so Inspector will be pleased).

 

[Mike Fletcher]

Maybe we encourage Axminster to start making the things we buy from America and Canada. Maybe they could use the increased (potential) revenue?

 

[spanner48]

I know that a majority of Americans are not this, but the world has no choice but to treat tbe US under Trump as a proto-fascist country. I seriousy doubt they are coming back from this. Unless the mid-terms produce something extraordinary, US democacy is done for, until the decent people wake up,

" I know that a majority of Americans are not this . . . "

How?

In a series of national and state votes the majority of the US public gave Trump one, then another term as President, then the control of both Houses of Congress. After he had told them during campaigning exactly what he was going to do. A series of decisions supported by both Houses allowed him to pack the Supreme Court with lawyers of little legal merit, but absolute loyalty to himself. Since gaining office this time he has purged every US State department of leaders not completely supportive of him.

So he has now seized control of all three branches of government: the Legislative, the Executive and the Judiciary. So the "Separation of Powers" between these three – the fundamental defence mechanism of democracy against fascism – has disappeared.

And not a single Republican – whether Senator, Congressman, Governor or State Officer – has stood up to oppose this.

For those who study history, the parallels with Germany in 1932 - 1934 are ominous. In particular, the failure of the Centre Party and the Conservatives in the Reichstag to oppose Hitler's 1933 bid for absolute power foreshadows what is happening today. It took less than a year thereafter for Nazi dictatorship to be established . . . . .

And that is just Trump. Already showing clear symptoms of senile decay. So we are just one heart attack, stroke or disablement away from his successor. I have long worried about what particular life-form would next climb out of the primeval swamp that is Washington DC.

Now, with Vance, we know.

BE AFRAID; BE VERY AFRAID

 

[Eshmiel]

" I know that a majority of Americans are not this . . . "

How?

In a series of national and state votes the majority of the US public gave Trump one, then another term as President, then the control of both Houses of Congress. After he had told them during campaigning exactly what he was going to do. A series of decisions supported by both Houses allowed him to pack the Supreme Court with lawyers of little legal merit, but absolute loyalty to himself. Since gaining office this time he has purged every US State department of leaders not completely supportive of him.

So he has now seized control of all three branches of government: the Legislative, the Executive and the Judiciary. So the "Separation of Powers" between
these three – the fundamental defence mechanism of democracy against fascism – has disappeared.

And not a single Republican – whether Senator, Congressman, Governor or State Officer – has stood up to oppose this.

For those who study history, the parallels with Germany in 1932 - 1934 are ominous. In particular, the failure of the Centre Party and the Conservatives in the Reichstag to oppose Hitler's 1933 bid for absolute power foreshadows what is happening today. It took less than a year thereafter for Nazi dictatorship to be established . . . . .

BE AFRAID; BE VERY AFRAID

A reasonable summation of the current situation albeit lacking regard to many factors not present in 1933 Germany.

But you didn't continue. As you'll recall, the situation soon developed into WWII. We like to think that "the goodies" won ..... but it was always possible for "the baddies" to have won. Frankly, both another world war and "the baddies" winning seem entirely possible just now. Of course, "the baddies" will then become "the goodies" ..... assuming there are any humans left to give themselves such badges.

Personally I feel its a mistake to respond to Trump's economic wars by emulating his actions. That looks like a road to perdition for all of us.

 

[Yorkieguy]

I'm not going to comment on what motivated the American people - not once, but twice - to elect someone who is monosyllabic & morally and intellectually bankrupt and where that might lead. I think we've all seen enough this last couple of weeks to form a view on that, but it belongs behind the 'paywall'.

However, from an economic point if view, America's economy - like every other country that trades internationally - is so enmeshed, that it's next to impossible to extricate itself from that symbiotic relationship without suffering detriment. We've already seen that goods, materials and services between America, Canada and Mexico - for example in making American cars - cross the borders several times.

Apart from the imposition of tariffs making products more expensive for its own people, to maintain the status quo, retaliatory measures kick in. EG:

Canadian provinces pulling US alcohol off store shelves in response to Trump trade policy is "worse than tariffs", the boss of Jack Daniel's maker Brown-Forman has said. Several Canadian provinces, including Ontario, which is by far the most populated, took action this week in retaliation for US tariffs on Canadian goods. The Liquor Control Board of Ontario (LCBO), one of the largest buyers of alcohol in the world, removed US-made alcoholic drinks from its shelves on Tuesday. Ontario Premier Doug Ford said the LCBO sells nearly $1bn of US alcohol per year. "As of today, every single one of these products is off the shelves," Mr Ford said on Tuesday. The LCBO is the exclusive wholesaler in Ontario, which means other retailers, bars and restaurants in the province will no longer be able to restock US products.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0422zzpw8o

And this of course:

https://mashable.com/article/tesla-sales-registrations-decline-globally-elon-musk

The slogan 'Make America Great Again' has never been underpinned with a logical explanation of why America is no longer great, and what might be done to address that. We will all have a view as to whether America is now on a trajectory to become 'great again', but as to 'American Jobs for American People' (or British Jobs for British People come to that), it's worth considering the practicalities of doing that on any scale, and Apple products is as good as any to cite as an example.

Make America Great again’ - ‘America jobs for American People’?

Not possible - take that quintessential American company Apple.

Most people may believe that Apple manufacture their products, but in fact they don’t make anything – they’re basically a hugely successful design and marketing company. China assembles most of Apple's iPhones in factories in Shenzen, China, though Foxconn maintains factories in countries across the world, including Thailand, Malaysia, the Czech Republic, South Korea, Singapore, and the Philippines.

Take a look at the back of an iPhone, iPad, or any Apple product and you’ll see in small text ‘Designed by Apple in California - Assembled in China’. Many wonder why Apple has chosen to outsource all of its production overseas, specifically to China, and believe that Apple are just out to make tons of money and that’s the sole reason for the relocation…but it’s not the truth.

So why can’t Apple’s gadgets be assembled in the USA?

Or in general terms, why can’t most international consumer electronics and computer businesses do their manufacturing work internally to create local jobs and boost their economy? Simple — iPhones aren’t manufactured in America because they can’t be - there’s not enough manpower to support the manufacturing of Apple’s products. The factory in China where Apple products - specifically iPhones - undergo final assembly has approximately 230,000 workers. There are only 83 cities in the USA that have populations as high as this factory’s number of employees, let alone people of employable age who are in need of jobs. Hence, the number of possible workers in the US is not enough to cover Apple’s needs.

In China, an estimated 25% of their workforce lives in company-owned dormitories located on factory property. Many live and working at the factory. Such jobs are in high demand in China, and they can hire many people overnight. The speed, and efficiency of Chinese manufacturing surpasses anything the US is presently capable of.

In addition to the manpower China offers, most of the raw materials used to make Apple products are also manufactured overseas - a lot are within a short distance of the final assembly plant. Shipping those components to any US-based factories would mean higher costs and potentially, possible manufacturing delays. It would also cost more money to manufacture in America because workers are paid so much more, with added overhead expenses on worker benefits, health insurance, and higher taxes. Since companies want to generate revenue, added costs are inevitably result in increased prices for goods. In simpler terms, this would mean that American-manufactured Apple products would cost more, would become uncompetitive and unaffordable.

Apple’s decision to outsource its manufacturing to China is about who can build the greatest number of Apple products in the shortest time. China is able to remain flexible and immediately adaptable to the needs of Apple. In a report, an Apple executive also stated that the US no longer has the people with the skills that they need. One example is the release of the iPhone. There is a huge demand for it, and Apple knew it needed to be finished as fast as possible. Apple was aware that this wasn’t attainable in US as manufacturing there would result in delays. Hence they sought out the service of Chinese factories, and they were able to quickly get the iPhone to market.

This is because in China, manufacturers can ask a large number of engineers to work on the required manufacturing overnight. As they have an abundant supply of labour force, this allows them to finish a large capacity of workload quickly. The US simply cannot employ 250,000 workers overnight equipped with the necessary skills. This makes China a flexible and capable supplier. Apple is reaping the financial rewards, because China has an abundance of hard-working people with the right skills, which America does not. They are willing to accept demanding jobs which are standard to millions of Chinese, including workers who have technical skills.

As to ‘Designed by Apple in California’, well yes it was – but by an English designer, Sir Jonathan Paul ("Jony") Ive - Apple’s Chief Design Officer who joined Apple in September 1992, where he remained for 27 years until his departure in November 2019. Ive's first design assignment was the iMac’ G3’ desktop computer in 1998. It helped to pave the way for many other designs such as the Macbook laptop PC range, iPod, iPhone and iPad.

Remember when TVs all seemed to come from Japan?

Japanese companies such as Toshiba, Sharp, JVC, Pioneer, etc are still making TV’s, but nearly all components are manufacture in China. TVs use parts made in several countries - even brands headquartered in Japan use parts made in China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc - and many TVs sold in the US are assembled in China or Mexico. Also, Korean-based brands such Samsung and LG make screen panels used by Japan-based brands.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Lets not overlook Canada as they produce Jessem products and Veritas. The American names that spring to mind are Infinity router cutters and tools, Woodpeckers, and Kreg.

The person I dare say with more info is going to be @Peter Sefton at Woodworkers Workshop who a big supplier of these brands.

I have been in talks with most of our International partners and they are all worried and no one has a defined plan yet as there is so much uncertainty. One of our US partners is set to visit us next month but this may change at any minute if Trump.......

The flip flopping and threats by Trump are incredibly challenging for both countries manufacturers and businesses, it reminds me of the pre Brexit years where trying to plan ahead was impossible for us!

The components and materials our North American suppliers use are sourced from a variety of countries so the full understanding and tariffs will take some time, I know that a lot of materials cross the US / Canadian border so if the tariffs are implemented we will feel the effects over here and this is a threat to my business and the jobs of my team. I source tools from all over the world so hopefully have spread my bets, but maybe naively didn't see the US attack on Canada coming.

I hope we can still supply UK woodworkers with quality North American products, its not the fault of these companies but they will feel the full effects if the worst becomes a reality. My feeling is we should try to support them. But really think we should consider how much we use Amazon and big US companies along with Temu and Banggood that do nothing but harm to our own manufactures and businesses and pay little or no tax in the UK.

I feel so much money going to huge corporations maybe a bigger long term threat than Trump who hopefully will be gone in four years and Make America Hate Again will be a passing phase with JD/Musk and other hate preachers will be seen for what they are.

I have been working at the Newark show this weekend, some of the usual suppliers were missing and I hear Turners Retreat is closing this month, another loss to our community. I understand Sorby are very concerned about possible tariffs on them exporting to the US, so all businesses are being effected.

This article shows JessEms thoughts, I really hope they can survive as they are a great family Canadian business just working very hard and need our support!

https://www.thefp.com/p/canada-small-business-owners-react-trump-tariffs

Cheers

Peter

 

[Spectric]

I'm not going to comment on what motivated the American people - not once, but twice - to elect someone who is monosyllabic & morally and intellectually bankrupt

It all comes down to choice, with either A or B. If A has been led by someone who is senile and not delivered for the people then you have no choice but vote for B. This is along the same lines as in the UK, we had A for years and it became like a rental boat with so many different people at the helm that we got hoodwinked into voting for B hoping for change but not happening, at least Trump is doing basically what he has said he would do and put the country first. I think these Tariffs are some tool to get other leaders attention and set the scene for trade negiotations to try and level the playing field but the Americans have the same issue as most of the west in that we have priced ourselves out of the market, always wanting more and more wages to become non competative, same reason why the German auto sector is having big issues and has moved a lot of production out of Germany. Unless the Americans are willing to work for Chinese wages then they will not be able to compete, same as in the UK and why so much of our woodworking machinery is either fully made in the east or has a large amount of components from the east.

The speed, and efficiency of Chinese manufacturing surpasses anything the US is presently capable of.

That applies to the west in general, but also they have now got a huge skills base as well so they are on the same path that the Uk is on except they are on the upwards side and we are now falling down the slope on the other side having had our time at the top which seems to be a natural thing for all empires and countries to follow, it is simply there turn at the top table and the west does not like this but we were more than happy to have a chinese takeaway in every street.

 

[Spectric]

This article shows JessEms thoughts, I really hope they can survive as they are a great family Canadian business just working very hard and need our support!

But I recal that the Incra is just a Jessem product for America so if that is the case then losing Jessem also hits the American woodworkers.