Saw stop ( USA )

[Jacob]

@Jacob admitting to a near miss is not something I expected to hear - kudos to you for your honesty.

No, everybody makes mistakes.

Your persistence in the 2 push sticks is a credit to you .

Pure self interest! And costs very little.

It makes sense and I find it a little awkward tbh on larger pieces but I will persevere next time I’m using my saw. I appreciate any advice especially from those more experienced than myself . My 30 + years at B gas I was force fed safety over and over and whilst some of it was useful and worth knowing most of it was pretty basic and mind numbing. Personally I find my chainsaws far more likely to inflict serious injury hence the safety trousers , gloves , helmet and goggles , and of course my boots as a minimum.

Part of the problem is that HSE advice is in need of revision. It hasn't caught up with the explosion in usage of powered woodwork machinery over the last 50 years or so.

 

[TRITON]

He walketh anongst us spreading his gospel ...

 

[Jacob]

He walketh anongst us spreading his gospel ...
View attachment 198945

Yes you lucky people! And what do I get in return, nothing but sarcasm and abuse!
Actually it isn't my gospel, it was somebody on here years ago whose name I didn't take note of.
Seems to be spreading though and quite pleasing to think that it might actually have saved a few fingers, not just mine!

 

[Eshmiel]

Part of the problem is that HSE advice is in need of revision. It hasn't caught up with the explosion in usage of powered woodwork machinery over the last 50 years or so.

True but that's perhaps a small part of the problem, since very few who buy and use a tablesaw are anyway made to read and understand that advice. We are "free" to buy and use dangerous things in an ignorant and dangerous way. "Don't need no steenkin' HSE crap". Many fail to RTFM as they feel, "Don't need no steenkin' manual".

But perhaps more to the point, there are thousands of readily-available and dominant examples of very dangerous tablesaw use in the woodworking mass-media. It isn't just macho-men on YouTube (although they are the worst offenders) but supposedly responsible magazines showing unguarded blades with hands pushing stuff into them very close to the blade and with no sign of push sticks, feather boards or, even now, a riving knife.

What's needed is a rather large and strict nanny.

 

[Eshmiel]

Yes you lucky people! And what do I get in return, nothing but sarcasm and abuse!
Actually it isn't my gospel, it was somebody on here years ago whose name I didn't take note of.
Seems to be spreading though and quite pleasing to think that it might actually have saved a few fingers, not just mine!

Dear Jacob,

Although I admit to enjoying making the odd sarky response to some of your more adamant blares on one of your various trumpets, I do appreciate a great deal of what you say and take useful stuff from it. So do some others, I have seen in their responses. So don't be discouraged. Or get pouty-duchess, neither.

Perhaps you could turn the volume control down on your trumpets or every now and then play a lighter trill on a flute? But please don't be put off or indulge in feelings of persecutions. I find you to be an essential ingredient in this place and a great tester of my foolish certainties. Huzzah for Jacob and his spicey flavouring of what otherwise might be a rather duller discussion dish!

 

[TRITON]

It's actually mitre saws in the hands of the amateur that worry me the most. Seen the aftermath(on TV/media) of people reaching in under the blade to remove the cut piece and their jumper catching the teeth, resulting in complete amputation of hand or lower arm, which as we know happens in the blink of an eye.
It's always a cheap saw, and the spring on the guard has failed and never been replaced, or that he guard spring isnt strong enough to snap the guard back over when the saw is released, leaving a gap between the leading edge of the guard and the blade.

Another sure fire way is someone unfamiliar with the safety aspects and buys a hand held circular saw, then curls their fingers around the part they are cutting off in a way of steadying or in anticipation of the cut piece coming away and the run the saw through their fingers.

Unfortunately there's no sawstop system available for those kind of tools and not even the safety of push sticks, or proper guarding and its all down to ignorance and/or laziness

 

[Bingy man]

Many years ago my supervisor used a circular saw inverted using a black and decker workmate . I soon learned to stand clear of the blade . Then there was those site saws that were so flimsy they would almost buckle under the weight of the 8 “ x 2 “ timber they was forced to cut .

 

[mark w]

True but that's perhaps a small part of the problem, since very few who buy and use a tablesaw are anyway made to read and understand that advice. We are "free" to buy and use dangerous things in an ignorant and dangerous way. "Don't need no steenkin' HSE crap". Many fail to RTFM as they feel, "Don't need no steenkin' manual".

But perhaps more to the point, there are thousands of readily-available and dominant examples of very dangerous tablesaw use in the woodworking mass-media. It isn't just macho-men on YouTube (although they are the worst offenders) but supposedly responsible magazines showing unguarded blades with hands pushing stuff into them very close to the blade and with no sign of push sticks, feather boards or, even now, a riving knife.

What's needed is a rather large and strict nanny.

The thing with Jacob is to not take him too seriously, including what he just said about sarcasm and abuse, water off a ducks back for sure.
I agree he is entertaining and in the past I have indulged in "Jacob bating" just to pass a few boring hours, one of the few free pleasures left in life

 

[Sideways]

There is one video that transformed my attitude to tablesaws.
It involved a saw with no crown guard used to cut a piece of sheet material.
The sheet rode up on the blade so that the saw teeth began to act like a drive wheel biting into the liwer surface of the sheet.
They accelerated and spun the board so fast that you couldn't possibly react and the guy who was feeding by hand, I think more than 12" from the blade and to the side, out of the obvious line of fire, had his hand pulled right over to the blade.

Crown guard would have prevented this. No doubt at all.
The size of the sheet, larger than the saw table, means that push sticks would have been awkward to use and you probably wouldn't because the sheet would have been far better controlled by hand.
Extended tables would surely have helped but so many people put timber that's too big through a saw that's too small.
The learning point was that a saw can move a board in ways you really don't expect and pull your hand a very long way.
In H&S, over time you develop an eye for how accidents happen. Sometimes you watch someone working and can just see where it's all waiting to go wrong. I've taken many walks through factories with colleagues more experienced than me and they had this ability to spot hazards that I'd overlook. The insight comes with experience.
That tablesaw video opened my eyes a bit wider.

 

[Eshmiel]

The thing with Jacob is to not take him too seriously, including what he just said about sarcasm and abuse, water off a ducks back for sure.
I agree he is entertaining and in the past I have indulged in "Jacob bating" just to pass a few boring hours, one of the few free pleasures left in life

Jacob is good at exposing our comfortable assumptions. He reminds me of a Tyneside pub-cynic, who gives a scornful chortle at any remark one cares to make, after which interesting conversations occur with the cynic stress-testing of, oh, all sorts of feeble certainties. He's a valuable forum asset, is Jacob.

 

[Jacob]

Dear Jacob,

Although I admit to enjoying making the odd sarky response to some of your more adamant blares on one of your various trumpets, I do appreciate a great deal of what you say and take useful stuff from it. So do some others, I have seen in their responses. So don't be discouraged. Or get pouty-duchess, neither.

Perhaps you could turn the volume control down on your trumpets or every now and then play a lighter trill on a flute? But please don't be put off or indulge in feelings of persecutions. I find you to be an essential ingredient in this place and a great tester of my foolish certainties. Huzzah for Jacob and his spicey flavouring of what otherwise might be a rather duller discussion dish!

Thanks for that, er, perhaps?
In the interests of free speech and on the topic of Sawstop again, I thought from the start that it was an utterly naff idea, which some people are hoping to make a bit of cash from. There's a lot of that about!
It'll be forgotten quite quickly I reckon. Even for the half-witted or partially sighted the usual alternatives are better, and in any case they won't be the people buying the thing in the first place.
I'd be interested to know if anybody who has bought the thing have actually triggered it by touching the blade in the course of normal usage, and how they came to be in that position, and why they were not implementing normal safety routines?

 

[Jacob]

...

Crown guard would have prevented this. No doubt at all.

Yep! And the much dreaded "kick-back" is more often a "throw up" when a piece (usually small) is picked up by snagging the back of the blade.

The size of the sheet, larger than the saw table, means that push sticks would have been awkward to use and you probably wouldn't because the sheet would have been far better controlled by hand.

Yes definitely. If your hands are more than say 10" from the blade you obviously don't need push sticks,* except perhaps the last bit of the cut when you are near to pushing the sheet over and exposing the saw blade.
*PS except it can help with thin sheets to have something bearing down on them so they don't rattle and bounce.

 

[Jacob]

I'm banned from the Saw stop thread so I copy/pasted this here instead

.........The alternative mode used to be "tradition" - the slow and evolutionary process that develops practices that tend to achieve the desirable whilst evolving to avoid the undesirable. This takes a long time, often decades or even centuries, especially as surrounding conditions change and require adaptation of traditional practices to meet new factors.

It takes as long as the practice is in use. It's a continuous process of revision.

Traditions can also become ossified,

As they fall into misuse. But supposedly authoritative information also gets ossified, even more so as it gets taken for granted and unchallenged. Just look at all the bollox about sharpening!

since they often lack any rationalisation-manual

They are rationalised continuously; every new user a doubting Thomas and trying to improve on it. That's why craft traditions are so often incredibly refined. Continual R&D!

in favour of a , "That's just how we always do it" approach.........

That's just one of the meanings of the word. Applies to, say Royalty, or seasonal celebrations etc.
Quite different from craft traditions where a process may be the end product of endless refinement and development over generations, by people using the tools, making the things, etc.
I bought a book called "The invention of traditions" but it was all about rituals, highland dress, Christmas celebrations etc, nothing about woodwork at all!

 

[Eshmiel]

I'm banned from the Saw stop thread so I copy/pasted this here instead

It takes as long as the practice is in use. It's a continuous process of revision.

As they fall into misuse. But supposedly authoritative information also gets ossified, even more so as it gets taken for granted and unchallenged. Just look at all the bollox about sharpening!

They are rationalised continuously; every new user a doubting Thomas and trying to improve on it. That's why craft traditions are so often incredibly refined. Continual R&D!

That's just one of the meanings of the word. Applies to, say Royalty, or seasonal celebrations etc.
Quite different from craft traditions where a process may be the end product of endless refinement and development over generations, by people using the tools, making the things, etc.
I bought a book called "The invention of traditions" but it was all about rituals, highland dress, Christmas celebrations etc, nothing about woodwork at all!

The notion and practices of "tradition" are many and various. In many ways, we moderns have lost a full understanding and appreciation of the concepts and their various values or drawbacks. Post-moderns are even worserer, believing that any mad scheme dreamt up whilst sucking on a spliff is as good as any other scheme, especially old fashioned ones, no matter how long the fashion has lasted and been successful.

But its not just traditions that have fallen out of use that ossify. There are plenty of modes that have somehow become frozen, in minds and in behaviours, often to the detriment of the believers/practitioners ..... but sometimes to their benefit albeit to the detriment of everyone else (those ossified privileges and entitlements of our class system, for example). You could make a case that the whole current British state is an example of an ossifying, if not fully ossified, set of hoary old traditions long become detrimental to that state.

The Rationalist, though, can be a pest, inventing "wonderful new things" that are spurious, redundant, already extant in an already long-developed and successful form way ahead of the Rationalist's new patent. You believe that the sharpening of edge tools hosts such a condition .... and you have a point.

But so often even a Rationalist has a good idea. More often, someone who does understand tradition realises that even a rather vigorous innovation is not the enemy of tradition. Consider Lee Valley and Veritas, made so successful (for customers as well as the seller) by the many, many innovations stimulated by Leonard Lee, his son and his workforce. Leonard Lee's main source is a vast understanding of all kinds of woodworking traditions in the design and use of tools. He's made those traditions dynamic and thus helped greatly in ensuring their continuing relevance and survival by making better tools.

Elsewhere, many traditions have been demeaned via a failure to innovate and an inclination to move from practicing the full tradition to just going through the motions without all the necessary nuances. That's what happened to any number of British tool makers, who blamed "the market" but in fact failed to look after their traditions by innovating and improving to meet new conditions. Thank gaw for the better ones like the Iles, eh?

And thank you Mr Lee for them fine sharpening gubbins, essential to cack-hands like me who cannot meet Jacob hand & eye co-ordination standards.

 

[Jacob]

.........

...

And thank you Mr Lee for them fine sharpening gubbins,

All he's done is convince you that some simple things are difficult, that you are fundamentally cack handed but would be saved by buying his gadgets.

essential to cack-hands like me who cannot meet Jacob hand & eye co-ordination standards.

About the same level of "hand & eye co-ordination standards" as slicing a loaf of bread.
Mind you that's a real challenge for knife enthusiasts, who believe that bread knives are left/right handed, need to be of laminated steel, need a several stage sharpening process etc.
They are just playing at it. Poor old Brent Beech gave up entirely!
Luckily somebody invented sliced bread.
Must have been terrible in the old days before modern sharpening was invented, just tearing at it clumsily with their bare hands, hacking at it with blunt knives, rolling about on the floor fighting over every crumb.

 

[Eshmiel]

All he's done is convince you that some simple things are difficult, that you are fundamentally cack handed but would be saved by buying his gadgets.

About the same level of "hand & eye co-ordination standards" as slicing a loaf of bread.
Mind you that's a real challenge for knife enthusiasts, who believe that bread knives are left/right handed, need to be of laminated steel, need a several stage sharpening process etc.
They are just playing at it. Poor old Brent Beech gave up entirely!
Luckily somebody invented sliced bread.
Must have been terrible in the old days before modern sharpening was invented, just tearing at it clumsily with their bare hands, hacking at it with blunt knives, rolling about on the floor fighting over every crumb.

I'll have you know that I'm VGI at bread slicing, even of the huge sourdough loves covered with rock 'ard seeds from the local bakery. I have a knife about 6 feet long and an end-grain board to use it on made by me of iroko some 15 years ago, tough enough to resist my vicious slicing with the monster knife. I would do a vid showing you how to slice bread but I'm useless at viding.

The knife has cut hundreds of them loaves now (and dozens of a fine armoured rye bread loaf) with no need for sharpening. It's probably just my VGI technique.

 

[Ed Weber]

There is one video that transformed my attitude to tablesaws.
It involved a saw with no crown guard used to cut a piece of sheet material.
The sheet rode up on the blade so that the saw teeth began to act like a drive wheel biting into the liwer surface of the sheet.
They accelerated and spun the board so fast that you couldn't possibly react and the guy who was feeding by hand, I think more than 12" from the blade and to the side, out of the obvious line of fire, had his hand pulled right over to the blade.

Crown guard would have prevented this. No doubt at all.
The size of the sheet, larger than the saw table, means that push sticks would have been awkward to use and you probably wouldn't because the sheet would have been far better controlled by hand.
Extended tables would surely have helped but so many people put timber that's too big through a saw that's too small.
The learning point was that a saw can move a board in ways you really don't expect and pull your hand a very long way.
In H&S, over time you develop an eye for how accidents happen. Sometimes you watch someone working and can just see where it's all waiting to go wrong. I've taken many walks through factories with colleagues more experienced than me and they had this ability to spot hazards that I'd overlook. The insight comes with experience.
That tablesaw video opened my eyes a bit wider.

IMO;
The "learning point" should have been, use the right tool for the job and practice safe methods of work.
That saw did nothing wrong, the operator did.