Salutary lesson for joinery professionals

[AJB Temple]

A good friend is doing up his large house on the outskirts south of London, just into Surrey. He has engaged a builder to make a very large extension, pretty much doubling what was already quite a large house. He ignored my advice to employ a QS to supervise builders activities and draw downs, preferring to manage the project himself (despite having a full time job with long hours). Project cost in the order of £450K. Builder has subbed a small (4 man) joinery workshop to make some windows, doors and a staircase among other things, some of which have been delivered but are not fully up to spec: mainly lacking specified finishes.

Builder appears to have failed to pay joiner subbie, who has now (possibly as a result) gone into liquidation and accountants have taken over his shop and stock. Joiner has made several windows, staircase and balustrades, but not delivered them.

Builder has been paid on time by my friend who is now in an interesting position as even if he takes delivery of the joinery by doing a deal at a discount with the liquidator or (less wisely) doing so through the builder, as he now has no guarantee and also takes a risk that things will not fit or be of insufficient quality.

I have known at least three firms of joiners go bust over the last decade because they go far beyond a reasonable amount of work before being paid, do not get material costs paid up front, have no relationship with the end client, and allow delivery to a third party site (my friends house in this case) that does not belong to the person (builder) with whom they have a contract, thus making any lien effectively unenforceable. Their stock of WIP is virtually worthless if it is bespoke (as here) because there is only one potential client and that client will require major discount at best (due to risk and absence of guarantee) or walk at worst.

The joinery firm made just about every business error in the book. The quality of their work that I have seen so far was high. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand.

 

[dickm]

Should this post not be in Mr Cornwall's "tradesmen only" forum???

 

[doctor Bob]

Surely it depends on your attitude to risk.

 

[kostello]

This is a sad story...

But your friend should have a contract with the builder.....

If this is the case it is upto the builder to provide the building he was contracted to complete...

Your friend should only be dealing with the builder...
If he pays the liquidator for the windows isn't he paying twice?

Of course the real world is very different....

Good tradesman and good businessman are very different skills....


It might make you feel better to know that lots of people fail to heed good advice when it comes to building contracts....

Friends of ours instructed a friend of their's to undertake £100k plus of work on their house....

No drawings, no contract..... No guarantee....

I even gave them sample contracts to use.....

The builder gave them...."we are friends, don't you trust me " etc.....

What they ended up with is nothing like what they were expecting......

And the workmanship is appalling...


The lady was in tears several times a week...

And I saw it all coming before they even started the work....


Sorry for the rambling reply....

I do hope things work out for your friend

Sasha



Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk

 

[Lons]

I agree with kostello

Your friend has, or should have a contract with the builder and has paid him for the joinery and the responsibility to provide that is clearly with the builder. Who the builder has subcontracted it to is immaterial and your friend certainly should not be paying twice. Additionally, if he has any sense he should have penalty clauses in the contract to cover any delays caused by the sad demise of the joinery shop.

cheers
Bob

 

[marcros]

penalty clauses

these are a no-no. A clause which adequately compensates the buyer for any loss due to delay, and is absolutely not a penalty is ok though.

 

[Jacob]

I hope cornishpasty is reading this :shock:

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes. I should have mentioned, my original training, quite a few years ago, was as a commercial lawyer. My friend does indeed have a contract with the builder. The reason I have advised him to have direct contact with the accountancy firm dealing with the liquidation, is because my friend has concerns that the builder has solvency issues too. The point is, that paying more money to the builder has no guarantee that he will use it to service my friend's job. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is all too common. The risk now is chucking good money after bad.

The key mistake my friend made, in an effort to save costs and "take an interest" was not employing a quantity surveyor. He is paying on a time elapsed basis and trying to keep a check on work left to completion. A good QS would only release funds on the basis of satisfactorily completed tasks in accordance with a contractual schedule of works. Having been a speculative property developer in a past life, these lessons have been learnt. Tradesmen fail often. Banks usually read them as a weak credit prospect.

My friend has a very strong negotiating position with the liquidator directly and logically (speaking as a businessman) he should use it. This will be to the detriment of the joiner whose realisation from his insolvency will be significantly reduced. The building is watertight so a new joinery contractor can be engaged directly if necessary under tender. Inconvenient but not a killer blow.

Penalty clauses are pointless if you are dealing with small firms. The enforcement costs and delays make them a waste of time. Workable for a civil engineering project, but not for small contracts like this. Bite size chunks of delivery v payment is better IMHO.

Over the years I have learnt to try to select tradesmen on trust criteria ahead of price. Cheapest is not always best. It is frequently not best. Tradesmen need to sell the security and longevity angle. All too often they just compete on price. Customers (or at least the ones we want) employ people they like, not cheap people....

 

[kostello]

Be careful.....

As I like to say,
"No good deed goes unpunished! "


I think you would be best served by not getting too involved...

Maybe your friend should consider engaging a QS now to see if he has got what he has paid for so far.....

I really do hope that the situation is resolved to the satisfaction of all concerned...


Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk

 

[RobinBHM]

It may be that the builder is a long standing customer to the joinery and he had always paid ok before. -not saying that its wise, but easy to get complacent with somebody you trust.

Ive made similar errors in the past and had a few builders go bust on me, I still have one for £16k so have learnt tge hard way.

The most problems I have experienced with jobs is as a result if exactly the point you have made; no relationship with the end client. Builders often are very lax about details and are happy to expect specifications, sizes etc to be confirmed verbally. It is vital to agree everything in writing and drawings + signed off. I find builders get frustrated by all the details so important in joinery and speaking directly to the client is often really helpful.

If the builder has never paid for the joinery, he should be able to order elsewhere.

 

[Jacob]

...
Over the years I have learnt to try to select tradesmen on trust criteria ahead of price. Cheapest is not always best. It is frequently not best. Tradesmen need to sell the security and longevity angle. All too often they just compete on price. Customers (or at least the ones we want) employ people they like, not cheap people....

Speaking as a semi retired tradesman I can say that I've often mirrored this - when asked to compete for a job on the basis of price I've always cranked my price right up. One doesn't want to work for complete twaats.
When there has been a chain from client to architect to contractor via QS it's best to keep well away unless you get paid up front before starting anything - it's like dealing with pirates - if all goes well they love you, if not you are first to walk the plank!

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes. Jacob, I can see that perspective. Of course for anyone doing property development it is always leveraged and the bank will not release the next tranche of funds without QS sign off. I am frequently amazed by how tradesmen operate. I have three jobs on the go currently: a lot of fencing all of which has been completed and I still don't have an invoice. Megalfow installation done, controller screwed up due to obviously software problem that plumber does not understand, invoice issued only in part and plumber now very much on the back foot;, electrician doing three distinct jobs for me, wanted a deposit for materials (totally fine) but has not actually got round to invoicing it. It is inept.

Tradesmen should not go self employed without learning the basics of running a business really. And THAT, is why they need a tradesmen forum. Trade guys should encourage the weekend warriors who actually run other businesses to help, and in exchange tell us how to buy timber at lovely cheap trade prices ;-)

 

[Jacob]

..
Tradesmen should not go self employed without learning the basics of running a business really. ...

Perhaps if they learned the basics of running a business they wouldn't go self employed.

 

[Rhossydd]

Perhaps if they learned the basics of running a business they wouldn't go self employed.

Whilst that makes a degree of sense, it's not how the world works any more.
In far too many fields of work, everything is 'out sourced' now. Unfortunately there's also too little education about the requirements and risks of self employment.

 

[Togalosh]

Hello Gents,

I am in the initial process of getting an extension built.. which I have no previous experience of.

I have asked an architect to draw up the plans which should be agreed in the next week or so. They will be sent off to planning & building control then be sent out to tender (to 3 of his usual contactors, 1 of which has vans on almost every road in the leafier parts 'round here). If all goes well he will oversee the works.. but there's no QS mentioned. Is it usual for the architect to be PM & also possibly QS ?

I am not having anything built worth channel 4's time but still it is very important that it goes well. I now see that I have already been too.. casual.

What should I be asking for - a contract of what, works ?.. & ask who's contracted to who ?

I am a tradesman & know too much about failed business... & what constantly surprises me is that in an age where communication could hardly be any easier very little proper communication happens (I have lost count how many times I go to install something/a whole kitchen without the services being anywhere near ready)..& too many people are bad payers no matter what their circumstances or the quality of your work & asking for your money definitely does offend.

Thanks for the heads up.

Togs.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Swmbo works for a bank, an upmarket Swedish one. She told about how she had a conversation with a guy who was boasting how good a deal he got for paying cash for his AMG Merc. She said he seemed to have forgotten that she knew more about his finances than he did, and he would be lucky to be able to pay cash for his groceries, let alone a car. An acquaintance who is a kitchen and bathroom fitter told me he's only lost serious money twice - once to a solicitor and once to an accountant. Don't presume ...

 

[kostello]

Hello Gents,

I am in the initial process of getting an extension built.. which I have no previous experience of.

I have asked an architect to draw up the plans which should be agreed in the next week or so. They will be sent off to planning & building control then be sent out to tender (to 3 of his usual contactors, 1 of which has vans on almost every road in the leafier parts 'round here). If all goes well he will oversee the works.. but there's no QS mentioned. Is it usual for the architect to be PM & also possibly QS ?

I am not having anything built worth channel 4's time but still it is very important that it goes well. I now see that I have already been too.. casual.

What should I be asking for - a contract of what, works ?.. & ask who's contracted to who ?

I am a tradesman & know too much about failed business... & what constantly surprises me is that in an age where communication could hardly be any easier very little proper communication happens (I have lost count how many times I go to install something/a whole kitchen without the services being anywhere near ready)..& too many people are bad payers no matter what their circumstances or the quality of your work & asking for your money definitely does offend.

Thanks for the heads up.

Togs.

If the architect is paid to oversee the works...in my experience no-one gets paid until ne is happy.....

Of course the architect charges for this....

Building control drawings are far from a set of full plans...
I have only ever worked on 2 jobs with full plans....
The first was brilliant... Probably one of the finest things that I have built.....

The second....Hmmmmm from day one the plans were ignored and what should have been lovely houses are like a dog's dinner....

Oh and remember.... Once you start.
Every time you change your mind it costs you money...

 

[cornishjoinery]

Yep i'm reading, this post would fit lovely in my 'professional only' forum. :lol: I would just take stock of the windows and joinery at a good price, at the end of the day its bespoke so can prob get a great price for them. If the joiners work in the past has been of a high standard then nothing to worry about.

 

[Rhossydd]

Hello Gents,what constantly surprises me is that in an age where communication could hardly be any easier very little proper communication happens

Very little has actually changed in communication, only the delivery method and the addition of spell checkers.

What hasn't changed is the need to be able to set out definitions, intentions and terms with clarity. Judging by the dismal standard of many written posting here, it's clear that many 'tradesmen' haven't got the academic skills that are crucial to running a successful business. Jacob's suggestion than many would be more suited to employment, rather than self employment, has a lot of truth behind it.

 

[Togalosh]

Hello Gents,what constantly surprises me is that in an age where communication could hardly be any easier very little proper communication happens

Very little has actually changed in communication, only the delivery method and the addition of spell checkers.

What hasn't changed is the need to be able to set out definitions, intentions and terms with clarity. Judging by the dismal standard of many written posting here, it's clear that many 'tradesmen' haven't got the academic skills that are crucial to running a successful business. Jacob's suggestion than many would be more suited to employment, rather than self employment, has a lot of truth behind it.

My academic standards are fair & I have a fair understanding of business but no one can teach you who to trust & who will or won't pay. I have no skills in trust - I am too nice. There is a fair amount of stress in just doing my job, to then come home to bookkeeping & taxes ( not to mention the usual things in life) is very demanding - so yes, Jacob is correct.