Rounding off Plane Iron Corners

[raffo]

I'm also really sorry to offend everyone but I've just started writing my next question which is about sharpening.

You're safe as long as you ask to be told what to do, as soon as you speak your mind, you'll get a different treatment. Just try.

 

[space.dandy]

Wow, that's a real talent to have.....How do you go about getting the twist out of your MDF boards before planing to a finish?

I planed some MDF the other day. I had to fit some arcitrave around a loft hatch in a slightly wonky ceiling and was procrastinating on how best to work it. On a whim I tried using a shoulder plane, fully expecting disaster, but I was gobsmacked at how well it worked.

 

[aet1]

Wow, that's a real talent to have.....How do you go about getting the twist out of your MDF boards before planing to a finish?

Make sure you only pull my left leg - the other one often has descending damp. Of course if the MDF is in winding I get my plane with 45 degree frog, a standard cap iron as it came from the boot fair with the plane, a 25 degree grinding angle and freehand sharpening on an oil stone with the blade just a bit raised from the grinding angle, a stroke or two on back of the blade and a strop on the palm of my hand. I might even set the plane mouth fairly small with the cap iron quite close to the cutting edge if I feel really fussy A bit of wax on the sole and off I go. Of course I get a really crap finish. MDF is not a great material at the best of times and I can only afford the cardboard B&Q call MDF, and I can't seem to get the tissue paper thin curls I get from a proper piece of wood.
For variety I might tackle something that is not MDF - currently I'm restoring a 1780 fold-top mahogany table, I've just about finished French Polishing the top.

 

[J-G]

Tamusolin helps.

Better still, Tamsulosin Hydrochloride - Proprietory name 'Contiflo XL'

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Wow, that's a real talent to have.....How do you go about getting the twist out of your MDF boards before planing to a finish?

I built a sled for my powered surface planer for the MDF to ride on. I used some white oak that I air dried in the shop for at least five years. First the scrub, then the jack and so forth. No cambers or rounded corners on any iron, ‘cause I wanted the sled perfect. As Momma taught me, haste makes waste!

MDF is nice to work! Nice powdery brown talcum like dust and none of them curled shavings that plug up your vacuum.

 

[GerryT]

Perhaps time for those who argue some demonstrations of the opposite?
This approach could be done for smoothing until then instead, should the irons not be interchangable, or whatever reason this iron wouldn't be used for scrub work of sorts,
Perhaps Pabs could give more information of his intentions with the plane, or his options
in regards to say what suits,
Which would break down to the timbers worked I suppose, i.e like the lovely honduras mahogany
trees in Chippendales time, and favoured for it's workability isn't exactly the norm these days, but still used for acoustic necks on the fanciet of guitars, you might get away with uber sharpness alone,
or happy scraping down to get rid of tearout or be happy changing direction or whatever else other than planing in rows, i.e not planing in rows like Charlesworth would suggest.

Could be cuttin down yer own trees, and processing them, you'd need a scrub there.

Or could be planing a multitude of timbers whats available at the merchants, or even in the skips.
Here's what a freshly sharpened back bevel will do in the real world.
Should that be what folks are suggesting, as I mentioned Pabs was seemingly making good use of the cap iron already.

A real world scenario of refusing to utilize the cap iron, in a demanding circumstance.
I've cut to just after the sharpening bit, but you can skip back a few seconds to see.

Tom

“Perhaps Pabs could give more information of his intentions with the plane, or his options..”

I think the answer here is pretty clear …he wants to plane timber.
The problem with all this stuff is that most of it is frankly nonsense and useless to boot.
Terms like “influence” as applied to the working of a cap iron setting on a double iron plane does nothing to explain the setting up of one.
Next we’ll be hearing the “cap iron and iron” are really YouTube influencers.
I mean really, who care if the shavings are flat or curled ?
It‘s surely more important that the finish of the planed piece is flat and not curled.

Cap iron setting may be crucial as to how the plane functions on a given piece of timber but that’s just plain ole setting up that has been talked about from the year dot.

The problem comes when modern day folk who are not satisfied with “traditional” terms try and “influence” the terminology that has been used for centuries just to make out that they have discovered something new and brilliant.
There is of course nothing wrong with experimenting and even change, but to try and say that techniques that have stood the test of time have somehow only just been “discovered” by the modern woodworker, and then given a new name, that that makes them miraculously superior to their predecessor when in fact they are often exactly the same thing .

There are some very smart guys on here who use a plane every hour of everyday and produce sophisticated work. They don’t always consciously think about how the plane is working; and why is that ? It’s because they know how to set up a plane in the first place without recourse to videos and terminological bow-locks.
They work to get the job finished to the best of their ability and take satisfaction in that finished job, they don’t stop to admire their influenced or otherwise shavings .

By the way, I understand exactly what your driving at but it’s nothing as complicated as you appear to make it.
No offence intended by my comments .

 

[Adam W.]

Make sure you only pull my left leg - the other one often has descending damp. Of course if the MDF is in winding I get my plane with 45 degree frog, a standard cap iron as it came from the boot fair with the plane, a 25 degree grinding angle and freehand sharpening on an oil stone with the blade just a bit raised from the grinding angle, a stroke or two on back of the blade and a strop on the palm of my hand. I might even set the plane mouth fairly small with the cap iron quite close to the cutting edge if I feel really fussy A bit of wax on the sole and off I go. Of course I get a really rubbish finish. MDF is not a great material at the best of times and I can only afford the cardboard B&Q call MDF, and I can't seem to get the tissue paper thin curls I get from a proper piece of wood.
For variety I might tackle something that is not MDF - currently I'm restoring a 1780 fold-top mahogany table, I've just about finished French Polishing the top.

I do have a hazmat suit and facilities for biohazard containment, so I may be tempted to pull the other one, so to speak.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I do have a hazmat suit and facilities for biohazard containment, so I may be tempted to pull the other one, so to speak.

Here in the states, some of the components used to make hazmat suits have been found to be highly anti-carcinogenic. Be sure to study all labels!

 

[Ttrees]

Tom

“Perhaps Pabs could give more information of his intentions with the plane, or his options..”

I think the answer here is pretty clear …he wants to plane timber.
The problem with all this stuff is that most of it is frankly nonsense and useless to boot.
Terms like “influence” as applied to the working of a cap iron setting on a double iron plane does nothing to explain the setting up of one.
Next we’ll be hearing the “cap iron and iron” are really YouTube influencers.
I mean really, who care if the shavings are flat or curled ?
It‘s surely more important that the finish of the planed piece is flat and not curled.

Cap iron setting may be crucial as to how the plane functions on a given piece of timber but that’s just plain ole setting up that has been talked about from the year dot.

The problem comes when modern day folk who are not satisfied with “traditional” terms try and “influence” the terminology that has been used for centuries just to make out that they have discovered something new and brilliant.
There is of course nothing wrong with experimenting and even change, but to try and say that techniques that have stood the test of time have somehow only just been “discovered” by the modern woodworker, and then given a new name, that that makes them miraculously superior to their predecessor when in fact they are often exactly the same thing .

There are some very smart guys on here who use a plane every hour of everyday and produce sophisticated work. They don’t always consciously think about how the plane is working; and why is that ? It’s because they know how to set up a plane in the first place without recourse to videos and terminological bow-locks.
They work to get the job finished to the best of their ability and take satisfaction in that finished job, they don’t stop to admire their influenced or otherwise shavings .

By the way, I understand exactly what your driving at but it’s nothing as complicated as you appear to make it.
No offence intended by my comments .

Well if plane ole setting up is just that, then how did the likes of Klausz, or anyone else who've
produced videos, nor seemingly on the forums that have been knocking around in recent times
mention this, and instead suggest the BU planes, tight mouths, scraper planes, and whatnot.

I reckon they might have been plenty of folks who knew, Warren Mickley figured it out from a book I think, but I don't think many were listening to him either.
Likely a few hunrgy craftsmen were keeping this to themselves possibly? that would explain matters.

I gave my "conservative" settings regarding honing of the original cap iron,
i.e by this I mean a wussy by comparison 50 degrees,
what those who don't have a better term for this is... I'll take a shot.
I need even better results from my good ole cap iron setup?


So apologies if the mere suggestion of 50 degrees is taken as a know it all kinda thing,
it's the least I found I could get away with, having watched Charlesworth and a few others,
before the glut of hawkers nowadays.

One may dislike the amount of faff getting that camber evenly enough to scoot even closer if need be, for something of the most difficult nature.
Or having the cap so close to the edge risking it getting damaged, or possibly other reasons,
so may prefer to go steeper.
If going steeper, it's seemingly necessary to round the edge.

No hint that anything of the sort is mentioned in what I seen when I started,
and premium tools of all sorts of designs were being touted.
Guessing Warren (who hones his cap very steeply) was just sick of putting people straight,
but thankfully challenged David to learn.

I don't see it as a new thing, just a strange snippet which got mostly disregarded due to
lack of clear enough description.
Perhaps concealed for those hungry enough to understand better,
With the knowledgeable or woodworking authors of the time, writing in the spirit of Robin Hood,
or the questionable ones either, seeing as so many today have very much a facade,
who's to know what was what in the earliest times, especially when you'd dispatch the 'lil chislers out to do the grunt work.
I haven't a clue, only thing I've got the impression from is that ink was seemingly expensive.

Tom

 

[GerryT]

Well if plane ole setting up is just that, then how did the likes of Klausz, or anyone else who've
produced videos, nor seemingly on the forums that have been knocking around in recent times
mention this, and instead suggest the BU planes, tight mouths, scraper planes, and whatnot.

I reckon they might have been plenty of folks who knew, Warren Mickley figured it out from a book I think, but I don't think many were listening to him either.
Likely a few hunrgy craftsmen were keeping this to themselves possibly? that would explain matters.

I gave my "conservative" settings regarding honing of the original cap iron,
i.e by this I mean a wussy by comparison 50 degrees,
what those who don't have a better term for this is... I'll take a shot.
I need even better results from my good ole cap iron setup?


So apologies if the mere suggestion of 50 degrees is taken as a know it all kinda thing,
it's the least I found I could get away with, having watched Charlesworth and a few others,
before the glut of hawkers nowadays.

One may dislike the amount of faff getting that camber evenly enough to scoot even closer if need be, for something of the most difficult nature.
Or having the cap so close to the edge risking it getting damaged, or possibly other reasons,
so may prefer to go steeper.
If going steeper, it's seemingly necessary to round the edge.

No hint that anything of the sort is mentioned in what I seen when I started,
and premium tools of all sorts of designs were being touted.
Guessing Warren (who hones his cap very steeply) was just sick of putting people straight,
but thankfully challenged David to learn.

I don't see it as a new thing, just a strange snippet which got mostly disregarded due to
lack of clear enough description.
Perhaps concealed for those hungry enough to understand better,
With the knowledgeable or woodworking authors of the time, writing in the spirit of Robin Hood,
or the questionable ones either, seeing as so many today have very much a facade,
who's to know what was what in the earliest times, especially when you'd dispatch the 'lil chislers out to do the grunt work.
I haven't a clue, only thing I've got the impression from is that ink was seemingly expensive.

Tom

Tom

I don’t think you come across as “a know it all”, you’re just voicing an opinion like the rest of us, it’s more the terms that are used rather than what your trying to get across.
If we use the term “cap iron influence“ rather than “influenced shavings” we are not talking about the shavings themselves that are produced but the setting of the cap iron to produce those shavings .
The shavings in and of themselves are in some sense inconsequential .
It’s the finish that is left due to cap iron setting and other factors.
A fine shaving isn’t worried about whether it curls or comes of flattish so long as it produces the result the worker wants it to.
So it’s about finish left and not the shape of the shaving that comes out of the plane mouth.

We can say that cap iron setting will help dictate the shape, thickness or thinness of the shaving all things being equal, but I think that using terms like “influenced shavings “ gives an entirely complicated picture of a fairly simple principal.

Gerry

 

[thetyreman]

tom you're full of crap honestly, you're promoting cosman constantly and david w's nonsense, I've been through this several times before and said there is absolutely no difference between the cap iron being 45 or 50 degrees, it has yet to be proven by anyone that there is even a slight advantage, at the same time time, david w completely rejects the idea that the bed angle influences the amount of tearout, which is another utter nonsense statement from my own personal experience of making handplanes at various bed angles, my 55 degree krenov smoother has absolutely no tearout on every piece of wood I have tried so far but it makes a significant difference on figured woods that would otherwise be not possible to plane with a regular 45 degree bed angle plane without tearout, all of them double iron planes not single iron.

 

[Ttrees]

It's not David W's nonsense, it is the design of the double iron.
If you reckon, me calling out Cosman's refusal to use the cap iron to its potential is
promoting, then I think you'd better read what I said again.

Regarding proving anything, I can't convince you otherwise, but pose the simple question,
how much closer than what I've shown would you want the cap iron for smoothing?

The higher bedding angle obviously would give better results...
for one who doesn't make use of the cap iron, that's a given.

You might see the high angle infill plane David made when he thought the same,
it is restrictive for anything but the wispiest of shavings.

As I said there are three rules, (not mine)
break one, it won't work properly and is thoroughly misleading, to not working at all.

Here's the double iron plane being put to good use, with the cap iron involved that is..

All the best

Tom

 

[raffo]

there is absolutely no difference between the cap iron being 45 or 50 degrees, it has yet to be proven by anyone that there is even a slight advantage

I've never seen anybody who uses the chipbreaker argue that 45 or 50 degrees produce difference results. A steep tip angle, 50 or more. It's in black and white in David's article published since 2012.

 

[Jacob]

It's not David W's nonsense, it is the design of the double iron.
If you reckon, me calling out Cosman's refusal to use the cap iron to its potential is
promoting, then I think you'd better read what I said again.

Regarding proving anything, I can't convince you otherwise, but pose the simple question,
how much closer than what I've shown would you want the cap iron for smoothing?

The higher bedding angle obviously would give better results...
for one who doesn't make use of the cap iron, that's a given.

You might see the high angle infill plane David made when he thought the same,
it is restrictive for anything but the wispiest of shavings.

As I said there are three rules, (not mine)
break one, it won't work properly and is thoroughly misleading, to not working at all.

Here's the double iron plane being put to good use, with the cap iron involved that is..

All the best

Tom

I get shavings like that on some old spruce or redwood stuff I've been recycling. Very easy to plane, as is you chap's in the video. Cosman does demos with obviously easy stuff too.
I think the wood has more influence on the shaving than anything else AOTBE. Hope that's not blasphemous!
Have had problematic cap irons where the underside of the end hasn't been filed and traps the shavings. Just needs filing back a touch underneath. Polishing helps, just a bit back from the edge - less friction.

 

[raffo]

figured woods that would otherwise be not possible to plane with a regular 45 degree bed angle plane without tearout, all of them double iron planes not single iron.

I have no reason to doubt you've planed figured woods with your 55 degree bed angle planes, why would I?

I have had absolutely no problem planing figured woods with 45 degree bed double iron planes. I do not get tear out.

Rafael

 

[Pabs]

Better still, Tamsulosin Hydrochloride - Proprietory name 'Contiflo XL'

just as no one mentions prostatic massage...

anyway you see what you've all got and done! sewed the seeds of an obsession!

this is a faithful no6 cheap plane I got for 44squids essentially as a kind of experiment partly fuelled by all this chat.

the cap iron was skew-if.
sole was flat though
iron needed some attention

it was pulling some nice shavings after the iron had been sharpened but detritus was getting caught up where the cap iron was out of true and messing up the action.

I'll see if this attention to the cap iron helps some.

sorry to bring us all back to the simple pleasure of all this

 

[Adam W.]

Oh!
You've gone full on surgical.

 

[Jacob]

Just wondered - do barbers study their shavings in the same way?
Looking for evil "influences" and such like?

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Could I propose a novel idea: There's more than one to skin a cat!

I've tried the CB method and it works, and I have a #3 and a #4 set up that way. But I also have a high angle LN #4 that works very well. I also have a LV bevel up that works.

So what way is best? Well, if all else fails, well there is always a scraper (card or my #85) and, though I hate to admit it, my wide belt sander.

 

[Pabs]

Could I propose a novel idea: There's more than one to skin a cat!

I've tried the CB method and it works, and I have a #3 and a #4 set up that way. But I also have a high angle LN #4 that works very well. I also have a LV bevel up that works.

So what way is best? Well, if all else fails, well there is always a scraper (card or my #85) and, though I hate to admit it, my wide belt sander.

I can't ever get a 'planed finish - look - a - like' on the belt sander whatever grit I go up to. In fact the higher the worse as I think finer grits impart any small intolerance in the machine to the work.

Then again I've only been planing for 5 months.

or mebe tis my machine.

or my hands or a combination thereof