Poor english
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One term that infuriated a couple of people and has been mentioned again on this thread is the use of the word draw instead of drawer. As I pointed out at the time it is a term often used by the people labelled furniture experts on programmes such as the antiques roadshow. I would be interested to know if any of the more knowledgeable people on the forum know whether this is correct terminology or not. But even if it is incorrect I would think that everyone knew what was meant and can see no reason at all to become infuriated by an innocent mistake.
Dennis
Dennis
Argee
Established Member
I know how to look stuff up - whether that makes me more knowledgeable or not I'm not sure. Anyway:dennis":93wp2c5v said:
Drawer
Noun - One who, or that which, draws
Noun - One who draws liquor for guests; a waiter in a taproom.
Noun - One who delineates or depicts; a draughtsman; as, a good drawer.
Noun - One who draws a bill of exchange or order for payment; -- the correlative of drawee.
Noun - That which is drawn
Noun - A sliding box or receptacle in a case, which is opened by pulling or drawing out, and closed by pushing in.
Noun - An under-garment worn on the lower limbs.
Draw
Noun - The act of drawing; draught.
Noun - A lot or chance to be drawn.
Noun - A drawn game or battle, etc.
Noun - That part of a bridge which may be raised, swung round, or drawn aside; the movable part of a drawbridge.
Ray
Smudger
Established Member
dennis":1oqffbpu said:
The word is drawer. How you can imply the spelling from the oral defeats me.
And 'draw' and 'drawer' are not synonyms, so the possibility for confusion exists, which is, just possibly, why there are different spellings for the two words...
Smudger
Established Member
Mark68":2sfagoj4 said:
So, there's no point in trying, then?
Chris Knight
Established Member
"Grammar, properly understood, enables us not only to express our meaning fully and clearly, but so to express it as to enable us to defy the ingenuity of man to give our words any other meaning than that which we ourselves intend them to express."
William Cobbett: Grammar
William Cobbett: Grammar
****
Unless it is my hearing that is wrong when I hear someone say draw without sounding er I assume it to be spelled draw just as when I hear someone say straw I assume it to be spelled straw not strawer.But it may just be my hearing I would be interested to know how other people hear it.
Dennis
Unless it is my hearing that is wrong when I hear someone say draw without sounding er I assume it to be spelled draw just as when I hear someone say straw I assume it to be spelled straw not strawer.But it may just be my hearing I would be interested to know how other people hear it.
Dennis
Smudger
Established Member
The word is drawer.
This is the whole point about the English language that makes me not bother - it is 'illogical captain' spelling often (ofen) has no resemblance to pronunciation . Silent this and that !!! why ! ??? if there ever was a reason to make it this way - is there a reason to keep it this way ? weather whether ware where there their here hear sign (i know it is associated with signature) castle ....... its all stupid in one view - but valid in another !
As long as the context is there , one can usually (intelligently and logically ) work out what the intended meaning is.
I have often thought it's about time there was a world revamp of the English language, that is used so differently by so many people.
Rich
As long as the context is there , one can usually (intelligently and logically ) work out what the intended meaning is.
I have often thought it's about time there was a world revamp of the English language, that is used so differently by so many people.
Rich
This is obviously an interesting and moot debate, if I could add my bit and throw in the phrase "drawing room" so called because after dinner the ladies would withdraw from the dining room whilst the men lit up their cigars and drank alcohol, it was originally called the "withdrawing room" and the Ladies did NOT partake in those "filthy habits" (get a life).
IMHO, It's not so much how the word drawer is spelt when in conversation, but more about how it is enunciated, to the listener of a lazy speaker it will sound like "draw" instead of drawer, that's not being snobbish or supercilious, but if you read a decent dictionary, it tells you HOW to pronounce any word correctly, I hope I have'nt offended anyone that finds spelling and reading difficult, I have the same difficulty with sums and mathematics but I can mark the scoreboard for darts like lightning, not everyone is good at everything, but everybody has at least 1 thing they are good at.
Regards,
Rich.
IMHO, It's not so much how the word drawer is spelt when in conversation, but more about how it is enunciated, to the listener of a lazy speaker it will sound like "draw" instead of drawer, that's not being snobbish or supercilious, but if you read a decent dictionary, it tells you HOW to pronounce any word correctly, I hope I have'nt offended anyone that finds spelling and reading difficult, I have the same difficulty with sums and mathematics but I can mark the scoreboard for darts like lightning, not everyone is good at everything, but everybody has at least 1 thing they are good at.
Regards,
Rich.
now see ... elocution comes in here - as does local dialect ! with the world 'closing in' one ought really to be spreading their vocabulary to include local / regional and global dialects , in order to converse with the larger regional and global community.
I have traveled the world - and if I couldn't adapt the way I perceive speech and speak it myself, my travels would have been much less enjoyable !
I have traveled the world - and if I couldn't adapt the way I perceive speech and speak it myself, my travels would have been much less enjoyable !
It's a point that has been considered by many over many years Tuss. G.B.Shaw even going so far as to devise a plan to carry out the changes over a period of years.
Actually the reasons for the peculiarity in 'English' English has a very good reason behind it.
Here beginneth the lesson,
When Caxton first established his printing works in Oxford the language of the educated people in Britain and Europe was either Latin, Greek, or French. The ordinary people spoke what ever was the vernacular in their area, which meant they spoke Cornish, Welsh, Gaelic or any number of totally incompatible dialects.
A man of Kent would have have been speechless in Yorkshire for example.
This was the problem that Caxton faced, if he wanted a mass audience what language should he print in.
The classical dilemma he faced was the word PLOUGH.
In certain parts of the country the task was pronounced as PLOW, in others it was PLOGH.
If you, like me, are deaf, and rely on lip reading you will be aware that you can hold a meaningful conversation with another without understanding every word that is uttered, so with Caxton. By mixing the various words as used in different parts of the country he ensured that his customers would be able to follow what he was saying.
How they pronounced it was upto them.
Roy.
Actually the reasons for the peculiarity in 'English' English has a very good reason behind it.
Here beginneth the lesson,
When Caxton first established his printing works in Oxford the language of the educated people in Britain and Europe was either Latin, Greek, or French. The ordinary people spoke what ever was the vernacular in their area, which meant they spoke Cornish, Welsh, Gaelic or any number of totally incompatible dialects.
A man of Kent would have have been speechless in Yorkshire for example.
This was the problem that Caxton faced, if he wanted a mass audience what language should he print in.
The classical dilemma he faced was the word PLOUGH.
In certain parts of the country the task was pronounced as PLOW, in others it was PLOGH.
If you, like me, are deaf, and rely on lip reading you will be aware that you can hold a meaningful conversation with another without understanding every word that is uttered, so with Caxton. By mixing the various words as used in different parts of the country he ensured that his customers would be able to follow what he was saying.
How they pronounced it was upto them.
Roy.
I am not deaf - are you ?
I find this interesting on a forum when we are discussing language - written , spoken and heard / lip read.
If you are - it will (even if it shouldn't) make me read your replies in a different light. (just being honest) Especially posts regarding language.
You may or may not gather over time - that I dont judge anyone ,I know nothing of conversing with deaf people. I like to build a picture from posts, and even then I bare in mind the fact I have never met the poster and text is not tactile. That is why we have the smiley's.
[/quote]
Stone deaf in one ear and use an aid in tother Tuss. Both as the result of injuries.
I was attending a local clinic some time ago and attached to the wall was a poster that basically said, that 'this it what a lip reader will understand.'
Below that was
THIS .. WHAT . ..P ...D.R W... U.D..S.A.D.
It was the best approximation I have seen. What was missing was the info that lip readers acquire by other means. Facial expressions, various tonal inflections, the use of the hands and other body movement, all of which help to convey the message.
Just as you say we use Smileys here.
Roy.
I was attending a local clinic some time ago and attached to the wall was a poster that basically said, that 'this it what a lip reader will understand.'
Below that was
THIS .. WHAT . ..P ...D.R W... U.D..S.A.D.
It was the best approximation I have seen. What was missing was the info that lip readers acquire by other means. Facial expressions, various tonal inflections, the use of the hands and other body movement, all of which help to convey the message.
Just as you say we use Smileys here.
Roy.
I guess it makes for a more intimate way of conversing - all the body language and facial expressions being paid attention too, whereas someone with good hearing may not take much notice - and may even get the message completely wrong.
BradNaylor
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dennis":2tffjmgl said:
Dennis,
'Drawer' is pronounced in exactly the same way as 'draw'. This kind of thing is far from unusual in the English language. Assuming a phonetic spelling for every word would be a mistake.
It's not your hearing. When Arthur Negus says 'draw' he's actually saying 'drawer'.
Or isn't he on the telly any more?
:wink:
Dan
Smudger
Established Member
OK - boring didactic post coming up.
In the early 70s I wrote a dissertation on English spelling. The crux is this (from the work of Prof Albrow at London University): English is a borrowing language, taking loan words from many languages.
Each of those languages has its own system for pronunciation and spelling. It brings those systems into English, so English has a polysystemic spelling structure, reflecting all those languages (for details see link above).
This means that English is a fantastically rich and diverse language, capable not only of borrowing but also coining new words as needed or wanted, but there is a price to pay for that richness, which is complication of spelling.
What Shaw (and others) never fully accepted was that to simplify spelling would be, in many cases, to simplify meaning, to rob the language of the very features that make it so wonderful.
And if Arthur Negus was on telly it would be unpleasant, as he died in 1985!
In the early 70s I wrote a dissertation on English spelling. The crux is this (from the work of Prof Albrow at London University): English is a borrowing language, taking loan words from many languages.
Each of those languages has its own system for pronunciation and spelling. It brings those systems into English, so English has a polysystemic spelling structure, reflecting all those languages (for details see link above).
This means that English is a fantastically rich and diverse language, capable not only of borrowing but also coining new words as needed or wanted, but there is a price to pay for that richness, which is complication of spelling.
What Shaw (and others) never fully accepted was that to simplify spelling would be, in many cases, to simplify meaning, to rob the language of the very features that make it so wonderful.
And if Arthur Negus was on telly it would be unpleasant, as he died in 1985!
