Planing, do you use pushbocks?

[Peter Sefton]

Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber but my personal advice is try not to surface anything less than 400mm long.

If a trainer advised someone to use the planer in the way being advised by Jacob they may be liable if an accident were to happen. In industry we need to work within ACOP's and safe systems of work, working in your own workshop means you don't have to follow HSE advice but they do recommend techniques for reasons.

We have been here several times before :roll:

Cheers Peter

 

[memzey]

Hmmm. I've got a big old Sedgwick MB and the thought of that 4" block spinning while exposed to that degree is a bit terrifying to be honest. I feel perfectly safe and in control with my current method for face planing but I think I will give edge jointing with the push sticks a go - has to be push sticks of this pattern for me though:


Can't get on with the other style as it feels like my hands are closer to the sharp spinny bits than they need to be.

 

[Jacob]

Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber .....

They are wrong. Push blocks are dangerous (hands too near the cutters and reaching over etc). Push sticks are much safer.

 

[Nelsun]

Popcorn time I'm just jealous as I have no room for a planer and regularly knacker my aging wrists flattening and jointing things with a number 5.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[ColeyS1]

Are there any YouTube videos of people doing it this way? It's something I think I need to be shown, before deciding if I should try it or not.

 

[stuartpaul]

Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber .....

They are wrong. Push blocks are dangerous (hands too near the cutters and reaching over etc). Push sticks are much safer.

So there you have it, - either follow what Jacob says/does or you can follow what the HSE say as the enforcers/advisers on H&S within the UK.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf

I know which one I'll follow.

 

[sploo]

Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber .....

They are wrong. Push blocks are dangerous (hands too near the cutters and reaching over etc). Push sticks are much safer.

So there you have it, - either follow what Jacob says/does or you can follow what the HSE say as the enforcers/advisers on H&S within the UK.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf

I know which one I'll follow.

I'm absolutely in agreement of safe practices. The bit I struggle with is illustrated by the following section from the doc above: "When flatting, the workpiece should be fed by pressure with the right hand, the left hand holding it down initially on the infeed table. As soon as there is enough timber on the out­feed table, the left hand can pass safely over the bridge guard to apply pressure on the out­feed table and will be followed by the right hand to complete the feeding operation"

The act of moving a hand across (from the in-feed to the out-feed side) naturally results in a change in pressure on the stock, and for me it usually leads to a visible defect on the cut face.

I've seen a video (maybe of Peter) walking his fingers over the guard (heel of the hand was maybe still on the stock on the in-feed side). Is that the way to do it (to maintain even pressure, but never have your hand touching the stock over the blade)?

 

[memzey]

That passage essentially describes exactly how I do it. I apply pressure on the out feed side as soon as I can. I've never encountered any defects arising from that technique (not to say it doesn't happen, just not to me yet).

 

[Peter Sefton]

Spool the transfer of pressure from the indeed to outfield table is one of the trickier things to learn and I feel even more difficult to achieve with push blocks (or push sticks).

You maybe referring to this video, I would usually lift my hands further away from the bridge guard and never run them over the block when edging but this was an exceptional piece of very expensive piece of timber!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

,,,,,,,They are wrong. Push blocks are dangerous (hands too near the cutters and reaching over etc). Push sticks are much safer.

So there you have it, - either follow what Jacob says/does or you can follow what the HSE say as the enforcers/advisers on H&S within the UK.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf

I know which one I'll follow.

I'm absolutely in agreement of safe practices. The bit I struggle with is illustrated by the following section from the doc above: "When flatting, the workpiece should be fed by pressure with the right hand, the left hand holding it down initially on the infeed table. As soon as there is enough timber on the out­feed table, the left hand can pass safely over the bridge guard to apply pressure on the out­feed table and will be followed by the right hand to complete the feeding operation"

The act of moving a hand across (from the in-feed to the out-feed side) naturally results in a change in pressure on the stock, and for me it usually leads to a visible defect on the cut face.

I've seen a video (maybe of Peter) walking his fingers over the guard (heel of the hand was maybe still on the stock on the in-feed side). Is that the way to do it (to maintain even pressure, but never have your hand touching the stock over the blade)?

That advice is good if you are taking a fine shaving from a piece of curly maple as per the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw
but most of us aren't doing anything so special, most of the time.
If that was a piece of redwood (for a panel etc?) the push stick method comes into it's own - guard set to the side, left hand push stick in the middle of the board, right hand push stick at the end, hands always 10" or so away from the cutters - and safer than the method in the vid. That hands-close-on method should be reserved only for when unavoidable.

"Spool the transfer of pressure from the indeed to outfield table is one of the trickier things to learn and I feel even more difficult to achieve with push blocks (or push sticks)." Is in fact very easy with push sticks - with shortish piece it's one very safe smooth movement with no fiddling about.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

If that was a piece of redwood (for a panel etc?) the push stick method comes into it's own - guard set to the side, left hand push stick in the middle of the board, right hand push stick at the end, hands always 10" or so away from the cutters - and safer than the method in the vid. That hands-close-on method should be reserved only for when unavoidable.

Jacob, I must admit I've read you recommend your surface planer and push stick methodology perhaps dozens or even scores of times in several threads. I can't recall ever seeing anyone using it as a normal operating procedure. I see the method demonstrated in Peter Sefton's video used on a daily basis by both professional and amateur woodworkers, and I use (and taught probably three or four hundred learners) essentially the same methodology as Peter demonstrated. Peter's methodology applies to probably 99% of all surfacing and edging operations on a surface planer, whether the piece being surfaced is short (400 mm or so), long, contains awkward grain, shows pommelle figure, striped figure, crotch, or whatever - the other 1% of times a different methodology might be appropriate are rather specialised and a push stick might have a use in some cases.

I think you're going to have to eventually accept that your surface planer methodology is unusual, an outrider, outside the norm, an aberration, or whatever anyone might like to call it. I certainly would never adopt your technique as a 'normal' method for surfacing (or flatting) and edging, and I can't really see anyone else in our industry taking it on either, especially as no-one is taught it in any apprentice programme or training programme at any level that I'm aware of. Nor does it correspond with advice or guidance from the HSE, who show a recommended technique for standard surfacing and edging that closely matches what Peter demonstrated in his video, with exceptions for other operations such as rebating, dealing with short pieces, and for bevelling (where there are instances of push sticks finding a use.

Evidently the push stick methodology works for you, but it's not something I've ever demonstrated or recommended to anyone I have ever taught, nor will I ever teach it. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

...

I think you're going to have to eventually accept that your surface planer methodology is unusual, an outrider, outside the norm, ...

No prob - already accepted!
NB it works and is very safe. Begs the question - what on earth do people do with those push sticks if it isn't something along the lines of what I'm describing?

 

[sploo]

Spool the transfer of pressure from the indeed to outfield table is one of the trickier things to learn and I feel even more difficult to achieve with push blocks (or push sticks).

You maybe referring to this video, I would usually lift my hands further away from the bridge guard and never run them over the block when edging but this was an exceptional piece of very expensive piece of timber!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

Cheers Peter

That's exactly the video I was thinking of - thanks Peter.

OK - so it looks to me as though you start with mostly pressure with the right hand, and relatively little with the left hand? I see you do completely lift the left hand over the guard (so I'm assuming you're not going from heavy left hand pressure to no left hand pressure in a short space of time).

I assume you finish with mostly left hand pressure on the outfeed side?

It does occur to me that it should be possible to do the same technique using push blocks. Maybe push sticks too, but perhaps harder due to having to apply pressure over a smaller area.

Question is: for a longer piece of stock, I assume you'd start with the same technique, and then stay with both hands on the outfeed side, pushing the board along hand-over-hand to get a smooth movement?

The issue I find with my planer is that changes in feed rate will show up on the cut surface. It is a tiny/cheap one though, and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some flex in the tables.

 

[sploo]

...

I think you're going to have to eventually accept that your surface planer methodology is unusual, an outrider, outside the norm, ...

No prob - already accepted!
NB it works and is very safe. Begs the question - what on earth do people do with those push sticks if it isn't something along the lines of what I'm describing?

I use them on the table saw

 

[LancsRick]

There seems to be a lot of fear in here about machinery rather than a healthy respect and sensible working practice. Hands on the piece or hands on pushblocks are both safe ways to do this activity, the planer isn't going to suddenly swallow the whole thickness of the piece.
Ref push sticks, they are great on table saws or even band saws in some situations, where in addition to the sticks giving you clearance, the machinery is exerting a downwards force on the workpiece.

 

[Noel]

Interesting thread, never used p/sticks on a jointer but willing to try it out. I generally use form blocks or hands on the timber.
One thing I do dislike is the bridge guard. I don't like lifting my hands over it, much prefer to in total control of the work piece and therefore I only have it over the exposed portion of the blade. Tried a kidney guard once and much better, will replace the bridge guard with one at some stage.

 

[Jacob]

.....
One thing I do dislike is the bridge guard. I don't like lifting my hands over it, much prefer to in total control of the work piece ....

Well yes it's a bit of a stumbling block. You don't need it over the workpiece if you use push sticks - just over the unused part of the cutters.
Depends on size etc, but often with push sticks you can pass the workpiece over in one steady motion without having to change hand position; better control, longer reach and much safer.
I've been calling it the axminster pattern but it's an old design and often copied.
The birds-mouth give downward pressure too, like a push block. Maybe it should be renamed to distinguish it from any old stick.
Not stick, not block, howabout "Push Stock"?

..... the planer isn't going to suddenly swallow the whole thickness of the piece.
........

That isn't the problem. It's more that a hand too near the edge or the end of a piece might be lowered onto the cutters, particularly if there's a slip, or a grab at a piece to stop it kicking back, or just sheer inattention.

 

[RogerS]

Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?

 

[Jacob]

Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?

Difficult one Roger.
If someone advised you to go and jump in a river would you ; a. follow this advice. b. hold them legally responsible for the consequences? :lol:

Seriously though; we are (mostly) grown ups having a discussion about safety. Personally I think push blocks are unsafe. Where's that vid of the fat Yank who nearly loses fingers whilst using push blocks?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?

Wonder what the moral position is for the forum when any member spends most of their posting energy trying to trap/bait one particular individual?