Planing, do you use pushbocks?

[Peter Sefton]

Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?

I think the number one priority of the most popular UK woodworking forum should be to promote safe working practices for it's members and discourage dangerous ones, I am afraid to say this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Jacob]

Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?

I think the number one priority of the most popular UK woodworking forum should be to promote safe working practices for it's members and discourage dangerous ones, I am afraid to say this doesn't seem to be the case.

Please show how and why my offerings over "Push Stocks" are dangerous?

 

[ColeyS1]

Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?

I think the number one priority of the most popular UK woodworking forum should be to promote safe working practices for it's members and discourage dangerous ones, I am afraid to say this doesn't seem to be the case.

Please show how and why my offerings over "Push Blocks" are dangerous?

Jacob without seeing a video of them being used,or how you use them, I'm inclined to think it's unsafe and can't recommend it.
I had a piece of 165x90 oak about 18 inches long to plane up this morning. I tried the two push stick method you suggested and it was downright fkin terrifying. The push sticks just didn't seem to hold it aswell as a pair of hands.
Till I see an actual video of you doing it several times, I won't be trying it again. I'd say there's more chance of a push stick flipping out, then a hand suddenly deciding to skit over the wood.
I'm always open to trying new things and your knowledge of woodworking is obviously tried and tested over many years. Without you demonstrating how it's done, I really don't think you should carry on suggesting it- someone's gonna have an accident.
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Jacob]

......


I think the number one priority of the most popular UK woodworking forum should be to promote safe working practices for it's members and discourage dangerous ones, I am afraid to say this doesn't seem to be the case.

Please show how and why my offerings over "Push Blocks" are dangerous?

Jacob without seeing a video of them being used,or how you use them, I'm inclined to think it's unsafe and can't recommend it.
I had a piece of 165x90 oak about 18 inches long to plane up this morning. I tried the two push stick method you suggested and it was downright fkin terrifying. The push sticks just didn't seem to hold it aswell as a pair of hands.
Till I see an actual video of you doing it several times, I won't be trying it again. I'd say there's more chance of a push stick flipping out, then a hand suddenly deciding to skit over the wood.
I'm always open to trying new things and your knowledge of woodworking is obviously tried and tested over many years. Without you demonstrating how it's done, I really don't think you should carry on suggesting it- someone's gonna have an accident.
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Don't do it if you don't want to. I'm not looking for converts or trying to sell anything!

What sort of push sticks were you trying to use? I'm only suggesting the Axminster type (or copies thereof in ply, mdf etc) and I can't imagine how you could make them 'flip' out or find anything terrifying happening. Flip out of what?

 

[ColeyS1]

......


I think the number one priority of the most popular UK woodworking forum should be to promote safe working practices for it's members and discourage dangerous ones, I am afraid to say this doesn't seem to be the case.

Please show how and why my offerings over "Push Blocks" are dangerous?

Jacob without seeing a video of them being used,or how you use them, I'm inclined to think it's unsafe and can't recommend it.
I had a piece of 165x90 oak about 18 inches long to plane up this morning. I tried the two push stick method you suggested and it was downright fkin terrifying. The push sticks just didn't seem to hold it aswell as a pair of hands.
Till I see an actual video of you doing it several times, I won't be trying it again. I'd say there's more chance of a push stick flipping out, then a hand suddenly deciding to skit over the wood.
I'm always open to trying new things and your knowledge of woodworking is obviously tried and tested over many years. Without you demonstrating how it's done, I really don't think you should carry on suggesting it- someone's gonna have an accident.
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Don't do it if you don't want to. I'm not looking for converts or trying to sell anything!

What sort of push sticks were you trying to use? I'm only suggesting the Axminster type (or copies thereof in ply, mdf etc) and I can't imagine how you could make them 'flip' out or find anything terrifying happening. Flip out of what?

I just wanted to know if I could make the process safer and as effective than it already is.

Have I mentioned a video would explain things so much easier ??????- come onnnnnnnn, please.
My advice- keep your two push sticks for bandsaw and table saw use ! (Unless you can show me otherwise) Those blade motions automatically push the wood down. The whole purpose of a planer is to apply pressure where it's needed to straighten boards. Having two chopsticks can't have as much control as an entire hand. Safer perhaps, but then it'd be even safer if I just used a broom stick :lol:
Fed up of hearing about it now tbh.
Coley

 

[Jacob]

Try the axminster type if you can be bothered. They are better designed than they look. Yours look all wrong, though I suppose you'd get used to them.
PS getting used to them is important. I don't know about you but everything I've ever learnt to do in woodwork didn't go at all well the first few times. Still struggling on some fronts!

 

[Peter Sefton]

Spool the transfer of pressure from the indeed to outfield table is one of the trickier things to learn and I feel even more difficult to achieve with push blocks (or push sticks).

You maybe referring to this video, I would usually lift my hands further away from the bridge guard and never run them over the block when edging but this was an exceptional piece of very expensive piece of timber!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

Cheers Peter

That's exactly the video I was thinking of - thanks Peter.

OK - so it looks to me as though you start with mostly pressure with the right hand, and relatively little with the left hand? I see you do completely lift the left hand over the guard (so I'm assuming you're not going from heavy left hand pressure to no left hand pressure in a short space of time).

I assume you finish with mostly left hand pressure on the outfeed side?

It does occur to me that it should be possible to do the same technique using push blocks. Maybe push sticks too, but perhaps harder due to having to apply pressure over a smaller area.

Question is: for a longer piece of stock, I assume you'd start with the same technique, and then stay with both hands on the outfeed side, pushing the board along hand-over-hand to get a smooth movement?

The issue I find with my planer is that changes in feed rate will show up on the cut surface. It is a tiny/cheap one though, and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some flex in the tables.

Spool

The technique for planing longer stock is much the same as short stock but you have the advantage of keeping your hands further away from the cutter block and bridge guard. Start with both hands on the timber on the infeed table and then move one of your hands onto the outfield table when you have sufficient timber to safely hold 200mm (8") for instance, or more depending on how long your long timber and beds are. Then move your other hand over the bridge guard to help (walk) your timber through the rest of the cut. Consistent pressure and feed speed can't be taught on a forum.

Always use the bridge guard and set as close as reasonably possible, the 74 Regs stated 12mm but now I advise 10mm. Do not remove the guard and replace it with a boomerang guard as the Americans have. When surfacing never have your hand above the cutter block without the bridge guard in-between, when edging always lift your hand off the timber and over the cutter block. If you keep your above the cutter's and you get kickback your hand will find the cutter block.

If you get your timber straight and square you can use the thicknesses to improve your poor quality surfaced finish at a later stage. Once you have parallel straight thicknessed timber, just flip it end to end and thickness off your face side to improve your finish. Also ensure you have sharp cutters, using blunt tooling is much more dangerous.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

........
Spool
.........r

The main difference with using "Push Stocks" as I now call them is that you don't need the guard over the workpiece as your hands aren't going anywhere near the cutters at any point. So you have a clear through movement with minimal changes of hand position and a longer reach. The possibility of an accident is extremely low - you'd have to have a fainting fit or get hit on the head! Other than that the worst that can happen is that if your pressure via the push stocks isn't sufficient, or in the right place, then you might get a dodgy surface finish, or a touch of kick back - which on a planer never amounts to anything much (unlike a TS).
Still waiting to hear what the risk is.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I write as a self-taught (taught primarily by reading/viewing stuff on the internet) amateur. Some time ago I hurt myself quite badly with a 2kW router in a router table - I ended up having a finger sewn back together in the hospital that made its name fixing up WW2 fighter pilots. Hearing the sound of parts of my finger hitting the router table fence is something I will never forget. My learning from this incident is:

1) Even if your conscious mind is telling you "keep your body parts well away from that rotating cutter", your unconscious mind doesn't follow logic.

2) When your unconscious mind cuts in e.g. the workpiece slips/moves/jumps in some unexpected way and you instinctively reach out to correct/compensate, the only way to stay safe is if there is a 'guaranteed' physical barrier between your bits and the rotating cutter.

3) If I had been an employee (rather than an enthusiastic amateur), my employer would have got himself into all sorts of legal hot water, as a result of my accident, for allowing me to work with a set-up not so different from what you can see on a huge number of amateur Youtube videos.

I will never again use any powered machinery which does not at all times have some mechanical barrier between my body parts and the rotating cutter(s) bits.

Jacob's technique may or may not be like trying to eat a Mars bar with a chopstick in each hand, but, to me, it has the significant flaw that there is no mechanical barrier between soft flesh and hard, sharp rotating metal (besides a stick of course).

I wholeheartedly support efforts to promulgate safe working in woodworking and I think that there is a lot of material out on the internet which is leading people into unsafe territory.

Cheers, W2S

 

[ColeyS1]

Jacob, I've never really understood why people get annoyed with you, until now. I've had the utmost respect for you till this thread. You could kill the thread with just one quick video demonstrating how to use your method. Your video could teach how ever many people that watch it, how to do it safer. Instead you seem happier just provoking arguments from people. Did we join this forum to help each other or what ?
You've lost a supporter, not that it'll bother you.

 

[Jacob]

......
2) When your unconscious mind cuts in e.g. the workpiece slips/moves/jumps in some unexpected way and you instinctively reach out to correct/compensate, the only way to stay safe is if there is a 'guaranteed' physical barrier between your bits and the rotating cutter.......

That's a very good point. I've had one or two near misses over the years and it's the emergency 'grab' which seemed most often the cause. I've kind of conditioned myself to do the opposite - if it's going wrong then hands-up back-off immediately. If it's going to kick back let it fly, or let it spoil the workpiece rather than your fingers. Like patting a dog which starts growling - hands off instantly!

 

[Jacob]

.....You could kill the thread with just one quick video .....

Haven't got the kit. I'll try a photo or two - I've just dug out a tripod.

 

[Jacob]

Photos. Caution, Push Stocks in operation
2 new ones, 2 copies. Best copied from ply or mdf which won't snatch or splinter if nipped - they just get trimmed instead.Or trimmed on purpose to hold a thin board etc. Good to have a handful of copies always handy near the machines. NB they are consumables - you don't bother about getting a bit trimmed off.
Planer not particularly sharp or bed waxed. No preparation at all. Still does a reasonable job including on a bit of manky sycamore.
I can't believe I'm the only person in the universe who uses this simple reliable and very safe method.
I am not happy when I read of accidents like woody2shoes above - accidents are very easy to avoid and our so-called safety advisers need to get up to speed on this one.
I vary the holding of course, depends on the workpiece - sometimes hands on and/or other guarding, is best.
The birdsmouth allows a very variable pressure from vertical to horizontal and you can choose where to apply it. Long pieces you can walk push stocks past each other so it's always being held down.
It's a very easy and stress free method and the extra reach means less moving about and/or leaning over.
I've been doing it so long this way that I feel nervous if my hands are closer than a push stock length from the cutters.

Random pieces of wood from the workshop floor

Just checking - are these photos oversized I can't be bothered to go through them sizing each one? I will if you can't read them.

 

[Noel]

Tried earlier today with a couple of push sticks and they work well, certainly for the random stock I was using.
They won't suit all sizes of timber but was quite impressed. Hands miles away from the cutter head and good pressure on the stock where needed.
I prefer the bridge guard away from the fence. If I get a chance may do a vid later.

 

[Jacob]

A shorter bridge guard would be handy so that one could have it away from the fence as you have, but not sticking out as you walk the workpiece past.

 

[Noel]

A shorter bridge guard would be handy so that one could have it away from the fence as you have, but not sticking out as you walk the workpiece past.

Indeed.

 

[ColeyS1]

Photos. Caution, Push Stocks in operation
2 new ones, 2 copies. Best copied from ply or mdf which won't snatch or splinter if nipped - they just get trimmed instead.Or trimmed on purpose to hold a thin board etc. Good to have a handful of copies always handy near the machines. NB they are consumables - you don't bother about getting a bit trimmed off.
Planer not particularly sharp or bed waxed. No preparation at all. Still does a reasonable job including on a bit of manky sycamore.
I can't believe I'm the only person in the universe who uses this simple reliable and very safe method.
I am not happy when I read of accidents like woody2shoes above - accidents are very easy to avoid and our so-called safety advisers need to get up to speed on this one.
I vary the holding of course, depends on the workpiece - sometimes hands on and/or other guarding, is best.
The birdsmouth allows a very variable pressure from vertical to horizontal and you can choose where to apply it. Long pieces you can walk push stocks past each other so it's always being held down.
It's a very easy and stress free method and the extra reach means less moving about and/or leaning over.
I've been doing it so long this way that I feel nervous if my hands are closer than a push stock length from the cutters.

Random pieces of wood from the workshop floor

Just checking - are these photos oversized I can't be bothered to go through them sizing each one? I will if you can't read them.

Much appreciated Jacob. That's how I was trying to do it, it just seemed very unnatural and awkward.
I think with anything longer than 4ft, I'd be more concerned about balancing the wood with the sticks, instead of trying to straighten it out. I had a piece of timber the other day that springs to mind. It was a fairly twisted and bowed door stile. I had to rock the board on the planer bed to try and find a happy medium so I could still maintain the thickness. The downfall with the push stick method, is the pressures always being applied to the left when planing a twisty board. Maybe not a problem if you've got plenty of thickness spare. Ideally pressure somewhere in the middle would stand a better chance of straightening it out, without losing masses of thickness.

I appreciate you taking the time to photograph it- if that's what you're comfortable with then all good. I just hope you never trip up and have your hand/head land near the exposed cutter block though.
I gave your push stick method ago, so reckon you should try not using push sticks sometime. Perhaps try planing some 4ft hard twisty stuff or some 8ft + lengths using both methods.
Short bits I'm just wary of full stop. Push sticks do look safer than hands in that instance, but I'd be afraid of the timber tipping in the cutter block, and spitting it back more than anything.I probably just pass it underneath several times till it was smooth.
Thanks Jacob
Coley

 

[Jacob]

Much appreciated Jacob. That's how I was trying to do it, it just seemed very unnatural and awkward.

it would at first. After a bit it becomes utterly natural. nb kick back isn't much of a prob with a planer - it doesn't have the 'throw' like a TS blade

The downfall with the push stick method, is the pressures always being applied to the left when planing a twisty board.

No you can press down with the push stock in the middle of the board or anywhere. It's really handy for bendy boards doing it convex face down - you put the stick on top in the middle for the whole pass. One stick pushing from the end - the other holding down and pushing in towards the fence by friction

I gave your push stick method ago, so reckon you should try not using push sticks sometime.

I do both and all varieties in between, but use sticks wherever possible.

It also works really well with a TS and spindle (if you don't have power feed). And with router table I expect - though I've never used one.

I'm quite pleased to be explaining this as I've been plugging it for a long time and it's very likely that a few nasty cuts have been avoided somewhere or other, though we will never know.

 

[Jacob]

With longer pieces the 'push stocks' also enable you safely and firmly to hold down the very end as it goes over the cutters. Otherwise difficult to do hands only as your hands have to be on the outfeed side pressing down and pulling at the same time.
With very very long pieces an outfeed roller is necessary, but the sticks still help at the end.

With very short pieces such as per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw the sticks really help (see my photos above). You can float the board over the cutters in one easy movement, firmly held down, no change of hand position required, no leaning over and stretching, hands well away from the cutters at every stage.
Peter misses another trick in that he isn't using the fence. Pushing the workpiece up to the fence helps steady it. Not easy if you are having to attempt that clumsy 'spooling' to get you past the guard! Impossible with an even shorter piece as the guard would cover so much of it there'd be no room for your hands.

Yes the cutters are exposed with my method, but your hands are always well away. Unless you get really seriously distracted or pushed from behind it's extremely improbable that you would touch them accidentally - anymore than you would accidentally stick your hands in a fire. No doubt this does happen - but very rarely! There is never zero risk with these things.

PS talking of risks - I made a mistake in my workshop; I used up some left over Osmo oil and linseed oil on the chipboard floor. It's very tough but also very slippy. I've got to do a non slip finish somehow. Another big hazard in a busy shop is machine left switched on, or running down still spinning. If it's noisy all around or if you are deaf you may not notice.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I think for the benefit of any new woodworkers reviewing this or folks new to using planar/thicknessers, it should be made very clear that it is NOT advisable to surface plane short lengths of timber. The problem is insufficient material to get a grip of which forces hands and fingers to get too close to the blades.

I appreciate Jacob is a strong advocate of a technique he has developed but we need to draw attention to the fact that Jacob has been practicing for a great many years and has a huge amount of experience around and respect for sharp, fast moving edges. He is comfortable with the risk he is taking, I would be very very very very very uncomfortable with someone even close to new in this field trying this method with short lengths.

No disrespect to Jacob because as I say, it clearly works for him. But lets please have some balance and understanding of the potential threat to less experienced folk who may innocently stumble into this thread.