Planing, do you use pushbocks?

[Random Orbital Bob]

I might be feeling a little sensitive on the issue of operator error and/or health and safety in general after yesterday when I sustained a painful removing of my fingerprint on one finger.

Skilfully managed to "sand" that off on a belt sander while trying to thin an oak washer for the screw chuck. "Silly boy" (or words to that effect) was what I thought to myself as the blood spattered the tool.
So can you imagine the damage you're going to do to yourself if your fingers hit the block in a planar? My brother can...he planed the tops of his fingers off on his left hand. The physiotherapy to get the numbness gone once the stumps had healed took 18 months.
Don't want to be maudlin.....just saying......is it worth it....the price a noob might pay....to "experiment". It's great fun...until it happens....joke sort of wears a bit thin after that!

 

[RogerS]

Wonder what the legal position is for the forum when any member advises unsafe working practices ?

Wonder what the moral position is for the forum when any member spends most of their posting energy trying to trap/bait one particular individual?

No idea. Perhaps if you did a bit more research before jumping in with your post then you will see that I haven't responded to Jacob in a long time simply because life is too short. However I DO value the UKW forum and would hate to see anything happen to it as a result of unsafe working practices being promoted and resulting in an injury to a member followed by Ambulance-chasing lawyers having a go at UKW.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I'm touched by your altruism Roger!

 

[Jacob]

It's not as though I'm promoting a high risk strategy. I'm doing exactly the opposite; I'm saying be MORE cautious and take extra measures over and above the official advice from the safety 'experts'. Keep your hands FURTHER away than they suggest.
You keep your fingers and eventually, as a surprise bonus you find the work much easier to do.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I appreciate YOU believe that Jacob....but the method you describe is just not for a beginner, in theory, because flesh is further away from the blades, it has the allure of being safer. But...and it's a big but....in order to become skilled at it takes practice and understanding, if a new woodworker read your piece and thought...hey ho, I'll just clean up this bit of 6 inch material, with push sticks, what can possibly go wrong!!!

Surely, even Mr "Stubborn" can appreciate that some techniques are simply not for a beginner "despite" their safety claims. I would couch your method in the following terms:

The generally accepted practice for surface planing is documented in the HSE guidelines and for beginners they would be wise to follow such advice since they have been hard earned after examining the true causes behind many industrial accidents. For those with more experience and practice, the amount of personal risk you take is your decision and the consequences are your responsibility.

I use push sticks all the time on my bandsaw and TS and I wouldn't be without them. But I remember how "goofy" they felt on the first few times. I just wouldn't want a newbie to have to learn the "hard way" with a planar because of the experience I have with my brother.

I will try your planing method just to get some first hand experience of it because I'm always open to new ideas and just because the accepted working methods don't include it, doesn't mean it's bad....but on balance...for a newbie....I'm erring with the body of professional evidence on this one simply because, what if you're wrong?

 

[ColeyS1]

As much as I don't wish to poke the bear, to summarise I think the push stick method hasv got over a problem that doesn't exist with correct guarding in place. It should be nigh on impossible to stick a hand in the cutter block.
Exposing the cutter block like in the picture creates it's own set of issues on its own. Trip hazard, hand goes in- ya fked.
I've got excellent extraction for the planer, I've also got a visor that covers my face. Topping and tailing I still get chips that bounce off the visor, very rarely still, I get bits that go under the visor and hit the skin. No guarding at all I'd imagine even more could be thrown out.
Learning to use the push stick method, would have to be that I couldn't use adequate guarding to start with.
I think you have been very fortunate if when you plane up a piece of timber all you have needed to do is push it from the infeed to the outfeed- that again possibly falls back to my mention of planing short lengths. Probably eight times out of ten I can just push a board right over the top, then carry straight on and edge it. But quite often I'll have to plane humps and bumps off part way along a board before I consider taking a full length shaving. Same with longish bowed boards. I'll have to use my right hand to raise the board off the end, then have a few passes getting near the middle, then turn and repeat

Excuse rough sketch (waiting for the rain to stop in the car)
The sketches look extreme but sapele over 2 metres in length and 63 mm thick (some times looks more like 68mm) quite often needs juggling, lifting spinning etc to get them straight.
I think my old foreman would have been a great fan of push sticks. He was the quickest person ever on the planer. So longs he could hear a full length shaving coming off, and it looked smooth, that was it- job done as far as he was concerned [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
Coley

 

[Jacob]

Coley - you do what's best for you and yes there isn't just one way. I don't use sticks every time either.

 

[ColeyS1]

Push sticks are safer than hands, when surfacing dangerously short pieces of timber.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I think the point was, not to surface plane dangerously small pieces of timber

 

[ColeyS1]

I think the point was, not to surface plane dangerously small pieces of timber

I agree.
Coley

 

[Jacob]

Here's yer mad man showing the danger of kick back, with warnings not to try this at home etc. Don't worry I won't! .
More importantly - what he's really showing is the danger of push blocks. When the kick back occurs he comes very close to losing a finger. If he'd done the same thing with push sticks he would have had better control and would only have risked losing a bit of push stick.
Look how close his fingers/knuckles are to the cutters. Scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

 

[Peter Sefton]

Here's yer mad man showing the danger of kick back, with warnings not to try this at home etc. Don't worry I won't! .
More importantly - what he's really showing is the danger of push blocks. When the kick back occurs he comes very close to losing a finger. If he'd done the same thing with push sticks he would have had better control and would only have risked losing a bit of push stick.
Look how close his fingers/knuckles are to the cutters. Scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Lets play spot the difference

 

[Jacob]

Here's yer mad man showing the danger of kick back, with warnings not to try this at home etc. Don't worry I won't! .
More importantly - what he's really showing is the danger of push blocks. When the kick back occurs he comes very close to losing a finger. If he'd done the same thing with push sticks he would have had better control and would only have risked losing a bit of push stick.
Look how close his fingers/knuckles are to the cutters. Scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Lets play spot the difference

If you mean spot the difference with my photo demo above, the differences in my demo are;
1 I'm using a planer, inherently much safer kit than a TS. Surprised you hadn't noticed!
2 no kick back involved. You can get a tiny bit of kick back with a planer but it just doesn't have the throw of a TS and is not really a hazard as long as your fingers are out of the way (i.e not using push blocks and avoiding hands on where possible) though you can spoil a workpiece.
3 Fingers well away from the cutters at all times - no danger of losing a finger

So if you want to get up to speed with safety and push sticks - get the habit safely with a planer before you have a go with a more hazardous TS

 

[Peter Sefton]

And what are the simulates between the video and your use of the planer Jacob?

 

[Jacob]

And what are the simulates between the video and your use of the planer Jacob?

Do you mean simularities?

What is it you are struggling to say? I think I can guess. Why not just say it? :lol:

 

[ColeyS1]

We're discussing using push sticks on a planer, you're referring to using them on a table saw - different subject, different thread.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

If the use of push sticks on a surface planer means the bridge guard has to be moved aside, exposing lots of cutter block, then it is completely against HSE directives and should not be advised as a 'safe' technique. Do as you like in your own workshop, but those things should never be shared, only best practice please.

I have never used push sticks on the surface planer, you can't if the bridge guard is in the correct position. I have never had an accident on the planer and always plane successfully. I'm not sure why they are needed.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

The same applies to using push blocks - the bridge guard has to be moved aside. You can't have it both ways and neither can the regulations - which recommend push blocks for short lengths apparently.

This is going around in circles. I'm saying push blocks are dangerous, push sticks (of the standard pattern) much less so.
Nobody has suggested otherwise so I presume we are all in agreement.

 

[ColeyS1]

If you work on your tod in a workshop, then yeah it's your decision. If you've got other people in the same vicinity, probably having an exposed cutter block isn't the best idea. Your shoelaces may be done up tightly, who's to say everybody else's is.
If there's any doubt whether a piece of wood is too short to surface- just push it through underneath if you really have to use it. No need for push sticks or surfacing at all then. Take light passes with the thicknesser, a mm or so at a time, flip it over several times and I'm sure it'll be straight enough.
Within reason, the longer the piece of wood being planed the better. For example, if I'm making some French doors, the two top rails will be planed up as one piece- chop it in half after.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Jacob]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf

They recommend push blocks with the guard pulled back. They also recommend a push sticks but with a tunnel guard - at least they show one in use but no mention in the text.
They aren't very clear or comprehensive at all - they are clearly 'advisory' as there are many alternative set ups, designs of push block/stick etc. of which they make no mention.
They don't at all deprecate push sticks with the guard pulled back so my method is perfectly OK as far as these regs are concerned. They recommend using a guard "to give the optimum degree of protection" which doesn't always mean right across - as they show in various drawings.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/l114.pdf

Here they are similarly non specific. They show a design for a push stick. It's not very good but there is no objection to using a better design of push stick, nor to using push sticks in place of push block and keeping your hands further away than their recommendations.

Funny how my simple, safe and perfectly legit suggestions have caused such a panic (amongst the usual suspects :lol: !)