Oh Dear - he's gone and trumped them all!

[Inoffthered]

But the EU 4 freedoms does include a star feature; freedom of movement. This is a radical idea and very democratic, "democracy on the hoof". Without it the other 3 freedoms are just about privileges for trade - arguably keeping the workers captive in their own countries. Free movement of capital but not of people.

No wonder it's freedom of movement to be ditched first, if the interests of trade and business take precedence via Brexit - we would all lose by it, as individuals, and we could be turning our backs on something very progressive and constructive.

Are you being serious? What is democratic about forcing freedom of movement onto a country and removing its ability to determine who can come to work / live here? Please explain.

 

[Inoffthered]

Personally I could never see the difference in being shafted by a bunch of idiots in Westminster and being shafted by a bunch of idiots in Brussels or Strasbourg.

There is a difference in that you can vote to remove the idiots in Westminster. You have no say in the appointment of Juncker and the other cronies.

 

[Chippyjoe]

Jacob, you are such a nob, why cant you just accept that we voted out of Europe, and Trump is going to be the next president of the USA.
You are just such a wind up merchant, you would argue anything going, I expect that I will get a ban for this post, but I really don't care, because its about time someone told you straight.

 

[RobinBHM]

I agree with the principal of free movement, certainly the UK economy has benefited a great idea.

But we are a small country with old infrastructure and a high population density. Since Maarstrict we have struggled to cope with the population increase.

The EU doesnt offer any solutions for this. Nor does it offer any solutions for the Euro problems.

I think Jacob's points are very interesting and yes, I agree with the Ideology, but I dont think the UK would be helped by the EU in solving problems the free movement is creating for the UK.

 

[RobinBHM]

I dont think Jacobs post above is an attempt at a wind up, Its a considered response to the question ROB posed.

 

[selectortone]

Just digressing slightly into the practicalities of doing business/taking equipment abroad pre-EEC. The Great 'Carnet' game....

I was that travelling salesman!! Carnets were a complete nightmare. Standing in line with a bunch of lorry drivers at some god-forsaken border crossing in the middle of the night when all you wanted was to be at your hotel enjoying a beer and whatever strange food was on that country's menu. I just couldn't believe my luck when they took the borders away.

 

[RogerS]

Just digressing slightly into the practicalities of doing business/taking equipment abroad pre-EEC. The Great 'Carnet' game....

I was that travelling salesman!! Carnets were a complete nightmare. Standing in line with a bunch of lorry drivers at some god-forsaken border crossing in the middle of the night when all you wanted was to be at your hotel enjoying a beer and whatever strange food was on that country's menu. I just couldn't believe my luck when they took the borders away.

I knew there had to be someone else out there who shared the pain !!

 

[Jacob]

But the EU 4 freedoms does include a star feature; freedom of movement. This is a radical idea and very democratic, "democracy on the hoof". Without it the other 3 freedoms are just about privileges for trade - arguably keeping the workers captive in their own countries. Free movement of capital but not of people.

No wonder it's freedom of movement to be ditched first, if the interests of trade and business take precedence via Brexit - we would all lose by it, as individuals, and we could be turning our backs on something very progressive and constructive.

Are you being serious? What is democratic about forcing freedom of movement onto a country and removing its ability to determine who can come to work / live here? Please explain.

So if the businesses you work for or use all decide to move abroad you would be quite happy not to have the freedom to follow them?
Sounds like a form of slavery; goods, capital, finance can come and go as they please but people (who aren't financiers, businessmen etc) must stay in one place.
There's even talk of border problems with Eire, and Scotland if it can stay in the EU. Brexit world steadily shrinking to little Britain.
The vote for brexit is a huge self inflicted shot in the foot - those who imagine they have most to gain will in fact be the most disadvantaged.
It's no coincidence that the chief pro brexiteers are basically the right wing media (owned by non dom tax dodging billionaires) and a gaggle of right wing financiers (Farage) and other very wealthy people and institutions.
Deregulating business and finance, whittllng away at human rights act, stopping freedom of movement, weakening the power of unions and control of workers rights. Do you really imagine they are doing this for our benefit?

 

[Jacob]

I agree with the principal of free movement, certainly the UK economy has benefited a great idea.

But we are a small country with old infrastructure and a high population density. Since Maarstrict we have struggled to cope with the population increase.

The EU doesnt offer any solutions for this. Nor does it offer any solutions for the Euro problems.

I think Jacob's points are very interesting and yes, I agree with the Ideology, but I dont think the UK would be helped by the EU in solving problems the free movement is creating for the UK.

What exactly are "the problems the free movement is creating for the UK"?
It features a lot in the imagination of the Daily Mail but what is the real position on the ground?
It seems to me that a huge percentage of immigrants to Britain make a huge contribution to our economy and quality of life - everything from crap agricultural jobs which nobody else wants to do, to top jobs in the NHS.
What, where, is the problem in real terms - not just rumours and stories from the Mail ?

 

[RogerS]

But the EU 4 freedoms does include a star feature; freedom of movement. This is a radical idea and very democratic, "democracy on the hoof". Without it the other 3 freedoms are just about privileges for trade - arguably keeping the workers captive in their own countries. Free movement of capital but not of people.

No wonder it's freedom of movement to be ditched first, if the interests of trade and business take precedence via Brexit - we would all lose by it, as individuals, and we could be turning our backs on something very progressive and constructive.

Are you being serious? What is democratic about forcing freedom of movement onto a country and removing its ability to determine who can come to work / live here? Please explain.

So if the businesses you work for or use all decide to move abroad you would be quite happy not to have the freedom to follow them?
Sounds like a form of slavery; goods, capital, finance can come and go as they please but people (who aren't financiers, businessmen etc) must stay in one place.

That's not true. Goods, capital and finance are all subject to import tariffs, laws, money laundering regulations etc.

There's even talk of border problems with Eire, and Scotland if it can stay in the EU. Brexit world steadily shrinking to little Britain.

You can't compare Eire with Scotland. Eire is a separate country whereas Scotland (at least for the moment) is part of the UK. I agree about the 'Little Britain' comment.

The vote for brexit is a huge self inflicted shot in the foot - those who imagine they have most to gain will in fact be the most disadvantaged.

Agreed. The naivety shown by many pro-Brexiteers is as breathtaking as it is depressing. After the recent judges ruling, one vox-pop interviewee on the radio was heard to say 'Why don't they just do it' (meaning leave the EU) as if it was as simple as switching off a light bulb. Such lack of understanding.

 

[RogerS]

I agree with the principal of free movement, certainly the UK economy has benefited a great idea.

But we are a small country with old infrastructure and a high population density. Since Maarstrict we have struggled to cope with the population increase.

The EU doesnt offer any solutions for this. Nor does it offer any solutions for the Euro problems.

I think Jacob's points are very interesting and yes, I agree with the Ideology, but I dont think the UK would be helped by the EU in solving problems the free movement is creating for the UK.

What exactly are "the problems the free movement is creating for the UK"?
It features a lot in the imagination of the Daily Mail but what is the real position on the ground?
It seems to me that a huge percentage of immigrants to Britain make a huge contribution to our economy and quality of life - everything from rubbish agricultural jobs which nobody else wants to do, to top jobs in the NHS.
What, where, is the problem in real terms - not just rumours and stories from the Mail ?

Jacob...I think that you are viewing this through rose-tinted spectacles. Suggest you read what Trevor Phillips has to say on the subject of 'sunset segregation'. I think that he has rather a more profound view on inter-racial and migration issues then either you or I, don't you ?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

What, where, is the problem in real terms - not just rumours and stories from the Mail ?

Now...before I document this, I was a remainer so take this in the spirit it's intended ie not racist in any way, rather a business dilemma for local workers.

In the local construction industry (I've renovated one and built two houses), there is absolutely no question that the British trades have been out competed by eastern European workers. The Eastern Europeans work for substantially lower day rates (undercutting the Brit's) and frankly the general reports are that their work ethic/rate is harder, longer, more prepared to do lates and weekends....generally more accommodating to the builder when on a tight schedule.

So I have witnessed with my own eyes the direct impact in construction and it appears to be carpentry that's most directly affected. I don't see many European Plumbers or sparks round here.

That's the only direct impact I've noticed personally. One could therefore argue that the living standards of local natives in those jobs have been directly impacted.

Remember...this is not a comment on race whatsoever, it's an economic discussion ie group A is more expensive than group B so the payroll master naturally chooses group B (Polish chippys). I mean, why wouldn't he? Cheaper and superior work rate, its a clear decision.

 

[ColeyS1]

I nominate Jacob and Roger to go in the big brother house. They could do a special version where it's only the two of them and instead of being a few weeks, it could be 6 months. Come the end they'd win the hearts of the nation, as we all witness their arguments develop into a blossoming relationship. Newspaper headlines would say 'RogJa to win' as they tried persuading big brother to split the prize money 50 50. I'd watch it :lol:

Coley

 

[Jacob]

Now...before I document this, I was a remainer so take this in the spirit it's intended ie not racist in any way, rather a business dilemma for local workers.

In the local construction industry (I've renovated one and built two houses), there is absolutely no question that the British trades have been out competed by eastern European workers. The Eastern Europeans work for substantially lower day rates (undercutting the Brit's) and frankly the general reports are that their work ethic/rate is harder, longer, more prepared to do lates and weekends....generally more accommodating to the builder when on a tight schedule.

So I have witnessed with my own eyes the direct impact in construction and it appears to carpentry that's most directly affected. I don't see many European Plumbers or sparks round here.

That's the only direct impact I've noticed personally. One could therefore argue that the living standards of local natives in those jobs have been directly impacted.

Remember...this is not a comment on race whatsoever, it's an economic discussion ie group A is more expensive than group B so the payroll master naturally chooses group B (Polish chippys). I mean, why wouldn't he? Cheaper and superior work rate, its a clear decision.

So British employers underpay immigrant workers? I'm sure the immigrants would be happy to receive the same rates of pay - that's what the real issue is, and unionisation is part of the answer.
Different on the unregulated self employed front of course, but I've been undercut countless times by other joiners - who as far as I know were not immigrants. It's never bothered me - no shortage of work, if somebody wants to work for less than me good luck to him!
In fact wherever competitive quotes were called for I'd generally crank my price up a bit and let some desperate nutter have the job - and see him **** it up by being too cheap!

So immigration wouldn't be a problem if immigrants all behaved like lazy, unskilled, overpaid, uncooperative, uncompetitive, brit workers!
Just asking!

 

[RogerS]

I nominate Jacob and Roger to go in the big brother house. They could do a special version where it's only the two of them and instead of being a few weeks, it could be 6 months. Come the end they'd win the hearts of the nation, as we all witness their arguments develop into a blossoming relationship. Newspaper headlines would say 'RogJa to win' as they tried persuading big brother to split the prize money 50 50. I'd watch it :lol:

Coley

LOL...if you look more closely at what I've been posting recently, you will see that I am broadly in agreement with Jacob when it comes to Brexit and its impact. If you peer even closer, you'll see that I actually thanked him for one of his posts :shock:

It's when he wanders off down his leafy Leftie-liberal lanes that we do differ, I'll grant you that !

 

[devonwoody]

I wish to thank the forum moderators for their time and position in allowing the thread to be aired moderately freely on this occassion.
I thing I am qualified to post, being one of the early members of the forum.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Now...before I document this, I was a remainer so take this in the spirit it's intended ie not racist in any way, rather a business dilemma for local workers.

In the local construction industry (I've renovated one and built two houses), there is absolutely no question that the British trades have been out competed by eastern European workers. The Eastern Europeans work for substantially lower day rates (undercutting the Brit's) and frankly the general reports are that their work ethic/rate is harder, longer, more prepared to do lates and weekends....generally more accommodating to the builder when on a tight schedule.

So I have witnessed with my own eyes the direct impact in construction and it appears to carpentry that's most directly affected. I don't see many European Plumbers or sparks round here.

That's the only direct impact I've noticed personally. One could therefore argue that the living standards of local natives in those jobs have been directly impacted.

Remember...this is not a comment on race whatsoever, it's an economic discussion ie group A is more expensive than group B so the payroll master naturally chooses group B (Polish chippys). I mean, why wouldn't he? Cheaper and superior work rate, its a clear decision.

So British employers underpay immigrant workers? I'm sure the immigrants would be happy to receive the same rates of pay - that's what the real issue is, and unionisation is part of the answer.
Different on the unregulated self employed front of course, but I've been undercut countless times by other joiners - who as far as I know were not immigrants. It's never bothered me - no shortage of work, if somebody wants to work for less than me good luck to him!
In fact wherever competitive quotes were called for I'd generally crank my price up a bit and let some desperate nutter have the job!

{chuckling to myself} That's a very noble response Jacob. I think I would have been disappointed if you hadn't made it in fact It's a perfectly reasonable perspective too and one which is straight out of the traditional left play book. But the trouble is I just don't think the business conundrum is that simple any more. There was a time when collective bargaining stabilised the power play between workers and employers but post globalisation, it just doesn't work any more because the employer can **** a snook at the unions and go buy the labour somewhere else. (Outsourcing essentially). And that somewhere else is a regulation free environment like China or in our example Poland. In other words globalisation is forcing workers with low economic expectations together with high economic expectation corporations or even smaller legal entities like small building companies (even me on an even smaller scale ie when I was building our house.

In this case though (as you mentioned), despite the ostensibly socialist ideology in the EU, union politics don't work for the self employed as it's outside of the regulatory framework.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for or against the status quo in respect of polish workers, I was just responding to your assertion that the EU has only affected us positively. I think its reasonable to say that a fair few British joiners have been affected by this disjoint in wage expectation.

But of course this is way way beyond just the EU because the force which is causing all of this is the inexorable rise in consumption and the scrabble of developing of nations to get a piece of the middle classes we in the West have been enjoying for so very long. Finally, everyone else wants to get their snout in the management trough for a change....and lets be honest....we don't like it! But it's only the beginning and that's for sure!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I wish to thank the forum moderators for their time and position in allowing the thread to be aired moderately freely on this occassion.
I thing I am qualified to post, being one of the early members of the forum.

I rather think that there may be hope for the world when Jacob and Roger start agreeing in public

 

[Jacob]

I wish to thank the forum moderators for their time and position in allowing the thread to be aired moderately freely on this occassion.
I thing I am qualified to post, being one of the early members of the forum.

Me too. I'd rather talk about things (and listen to) people I don't agree with - it's more interesting than being stuck in a room full of Guardian readers!

 

[Jacob]

[.... I'm not arguing for or against the status quo in respect of polish workers, I was just responding to your assertion that the EU has only affected us positively. I think its reasonable to say that a fair few British joiners have been affected by this disjoint in wage expectation....

But then the clients of these hard working efficient cheap joiners should see the EU in a positive light!
And we all benefit from the migrant agricultural workers - apparently a lot of stuff would be more expensive and even left to rot in the fields, if it wasn't for them. In other words - we don't pay enough for our stuff.