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Whilst I recall pictures of Leyland workers in 70s sleeping on the back seats of half made cars on the production line and the antics of Red Robbo I think the demise of the British Car industry can be traced further back - to a tax system that favoured the production of narrow bore long stroke side valve engines whilst other countries were producing the wide bore overhead valve shorter stroke and higher revving engines we now all use today - going to prove, once again, there is no situation a politician cannot make worse.
How did the tax system do this?
I thought the decline of the UK motor industry was down to archaic and backward bad management, and lack of design/development.
Red Robbo was just doing his job trying to hang on to jobs for his members.
https://www.aronline.co.uk/opinion/derek-robinson-victim-or-villian/
 
As the father of a daughter who has taught conscientiously for the last 15 years in the same comprehensive school, and seen many of her kids go on to university, I find that rather insulting.
I'm not sure why you should take that view? I've said nothing about teachers being to blame.
 
How did the tax system do this?
I thought the decline of the UK motor industry was down to archaic and backward bad management, and lack of design/development.
Red Robbo was just doing his job trying to hang on to jobs for his members.
https://www.aronline.co.uk/opinion/derek-robinson-victim-or-villian/
Basically, cars were taxed on HP - and HP was calculated using a formula that favoured harrow bore, long stroke, side valve engines.

Had they been taxed on capacity instead then we might have had better engines earlier - and better competed on the world stage.
 
As the father of a daughter who has taught conscientiously for the last 15 years in the same comprehensive school, and seen many of her kids go on to university, I find that rather insulting.
Your daughter has my fullest admiration.

I think the comment about 'children's education being wrecked' is quite correct, but has been taken out of context.

It didn't infer that transferring from a private school to a comprehensive school would mean inferior teaching, but because, in their spiteful haste to impose VAT on private school fees from January 2025 rather than at the start of the next academic year in September 2025, the children whose parents can't afford the increased fees, will need a school place in January 2025, half-way through the academic year, when they might well be taking GCSEs or A Levels.

Their parents, through taxes have already paid for a place at a state school and by not taking up those places, that's helped to fund schools, so expecting them to pay 20% VAT on fees is taking 'another bite of the cherry'. Under the Education Act, the Local Authority, and by extension, the Government, has a statutory duty to provide such places. As was predicted, thousands of parents who can't afford to pay the increase are applying for places in State Schools, for which the government has made no provision.

Starmer/Reeves have ludicrously said that the VAT gained will fund 6,500 additional teachers.

It's nonsense - it was a dogmatic ill conceived act of spite - nothing more.

Many smaller private schools, including special needs, will close as they won't be able to absorb the VAT and parents won't be able to pay, and there are no places for the children in State Schools. Scandalously, parents have been asked to provide evidence they can no longer afford private school fees to secure a place at a state school.

An email sent out by Buckinghamshire council showed a mother being told her daughter had been rejected by two local secondary schools because “they are full”. She was then asked to prove her financial situation in order for her daughter to be considered for another school in the area. The mother, who asked not to be named, had applied for a place at two schools via the council’s online portal amid fears she could be priced out of her daughter’s private school by the Government's VAT raid

The email from Buckinghamshire council said: “Unfortunately we cannot offer any places at your preferred school/s as they are full”. The email continued: “In this circumstance, we would normally advocate that [the child] should remain at their current school. However, if you can provide evidence that you can no longer finance the independent school fees, please advise and we can make a local authority non-preference allocation.”

Councils must not ask for parents’ financial status:

All children in England between the ages of five and 16 are legally entitled to a free place at a state school. The Government’s school admissions code also states that in some cases, local authorities may seek supplementary information from parents if schools are oversubscribed.

However, the code states that councils must not ask for information relating to a family’s financial status, criminal convictions, language ability, disabilities or medical conditions. Buckinghamshire council’s website claims it has received a “large number of applications” for schools in Aylesbury and High Wycombe, and that schools are currently oversubscribed. Data from the council show that just five state secondary schools out of a total 38 in Buckinghamshire had places available for Year 7 students at the latest count in July, while only four had spaces for pupils in Year 8 and three in Year 9.

It comes amid concerns that some local councils could become swamped with applications if parents are priced out by fee increases as a result of the decision to add VAT at the standard rate of 20% VAT to private school fees from Jan 1 2025. Estimates drawn up by the Institute for Fiscal Studies predicting that up to 40,000 private school children could be forced out under the plans.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/06/parents-asked-prove-afford-private-fees-buckinghamshire/#:~:text=Parents have been asked to,because “they are full

Most private schools are small and many cater for children with special needs - they're not like Eton, Harrow or Westminster.

Most of those who send children to private schools are aspirational working class parents, making sacrifices to give their children a better start in life. It isn't simply about the quality of teaching, but the ethos of the school. No disruptive behaviour, respect for the teachers, children who want to learn and parents who support them, and to support the teachers too.

And no truancy either, which doesn't just affect those who are absent, but other pupils due to teachers spending extra time in trying to bring absentees back up to speed. In State schools across the academic year 2023/24, 20.7% of pupil enrolments missed 10% or more of their possible sessions and are therefore identified as persistently absent. By school type, the persistent absence rate across the academic year 2023/24 was:
  • 15.2% in state-funded primary schools
  • 26.7% in state-funded secondary schools
  • 37.6% in state-funded special schools
Maybe if the Government spent more time and effort in dealing with the epidemic of absenteeism in State schools wayward kids would get a better start in life. Much of this is down irresponsible parenting which starts are primary school age. A new report has found that 50% of parents think the toilet training task isn't solely up to them, with teacher saying they're more like babysitters than teachers.

Teachers are having to spend many hours helping young children who arrive at schools in nappies, with almost a quarter of children not toilet trained by the time they start school. The report revealed that 24% of kids in this age group are not toilet trained, while 37% are unable to dress independently. Staff also reported that 39% of children in Reception struggle to hold a pencil, 25% do not have basic language skills and 28% of kids ‘incorrectly use books’ – for example, they swipe or tap them as if using a tablet.

Strewth.

At age 3 my kids and grandkids were 'potty trained' and by age 5, knew their = names and addresses, knew the alphabet, could recognise letters, knew the names of colours, could count to 100, dress and tie their shoelaces, knew the names of shapes, could tell the time, could hold a knife fork and spoon, pencils and crayons. That's not a boast and has nothing to do with whether parents are skint or well-heeled - it's about responsible parenting.
 
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Basically, cars were taxed on HP - and HP was calculated using a formula that favoured harrow bore, long stroke, side valve engines.

Had they been taxed on capacity instead then we might have had better engines earlier - and better competed on the world stage.
That's interesting, I didn't know.
 
Basically, cars were taxed on HP - and HP was calculated using a formula that favoured harrow bore, long stroke, side valve engines.

Had they been taxed on capacity instead then we might have had better engines earlier - and better competed on the world stage.
So Red Robbo wasn't to blame for the collapse of the UK motor industry, it was going down anyway due to archaic management and lack of R&D.
Certainly was the case with the motorbikes - they just didn't keep up.
 
At age 3 my kids and grandkids were 'potty trained' and by age 5, knew their = names and addresses, knew the alphabet, could recognise letters, knew the names of colours, could count to 100, dress and tie their shoelaces, knew the names of shapes, could tell the time, could hold a knife fork and spoon, pencils and crayons. That's not a boast and has nothing to do with whether parents are skint or well-heeled - it's about responsible parenting.
A cousin was a head of a very good infants' school, she retired in about 2000. She said the thing that irked her the most was that some children starting school could read, write and count, tie their shoe laces, dress themselves, go to the toilet alone etc. while others had never eaten with a knife and fork, never eaten at a table, still wore nappies, threw tantrums etc. and yet the authorities expected them all to be at the same level at the end of the first twelve months as if by magic. (My daughter could parse sentences when she was five - only because I taught her, it didn't happen by magic.)
 
Basically, cars were taxed on HP - and HP was calculated using a formula that favoured harrow bore, long stroke, side valve engines.

Had they been taxed on capacity instead then we might have had better engines earlier - and better competed on the world stage.
This basis of calculating horsepower for car taxation purposes ended in 1947.

I don't think that the design constraints the old system encouraged would have had much impact on cars by the 1970s - lowest UK car production was early/mid 1980s.

We could debate endlessly the reasons for the failure of the UK industry - disruptive unions, poor management, complacency, government policy all had a part.

However my impression is that designs were generally good and sometimes innovative - let down by poor quality execution.
 
So Red Robbo wasn't to blame for the collapse of the UK motor industry, it was going down anyway due to archaic management and lack of R&D.
Certainly was the case with the motorbikes - they just didn't keep up.
They didn't keep up, but they were also badly made garbage. I had a Triumph that was scrapped with fewer than 3000 miles on it.
 
So Red Robbo wasn't to blame for the collapse of the UK motor industry, it was going down anyway due to archaic management and lack of R&D.
Certainly was the case with the motorbikes - they just didn't keep up.
Whether in the absence of Red Robbo the UK car industry would have thrived is debatable. But his contribution all but guaranteed its demise. Destructive and pointless - an individual to be despised not applauded for his actions.
 
Spot on. Like children's education being wrecked because their parents can't afford the VAT uplift of private schooling...another Labour vindictive act. I see Buckinghamshire are saying that all the 'good' state schools are full. As are most of the others.
You mean better off parents being able to buy privileged education for their offspring?
Wouldn't matter but it turns into a fast track for posh idiots getting into positions of power and influence, particularly in politics, law, finance, as we all know to our cost.
They also get fast tracked into the arts, but that has fewer societal repercussions.
My 3 kids 100% comprehensive ending up with 1 PhD, 1 MA, 1 BA 2nd
 
Whether in the absence of Red Robbo the UK car industry would have thrived is debatable. But his contribution all but guaranteed its demise. Destructive and pointless - an individual to be despised not applauded for his actions.
The blame game as usual. :rolleyes:
 
Your daughter has my fullest admiration.

I think the comment about 'children's education being wrecked' is quite correct, but has been taken out of context.

It didn't infer that transferring from a private school to a comprehensive school would mean inferior teaching, but because, in their spiteful haste to impose VAT on private school fees from January 2025 rather than at the start of the next academic year in September 2025, the children whose parents can't afford the increased fees, will need a school place in January 2025, half-way through the academic year, when they might well be taking GCSEs or A Levels.

Their parents, through taxes have already paid for a place at a state school and by not taking up those places, that's helped to fund schools, so expecting them to pay 20% VAT on fees is taking 'another bite of the cherry'. Under the Education Act, the Local Authority, and by extension, the Government, has a statutory duty to provide such places. As was predicted, thousands of parents who can't afford to pay the increase are applying for places in State Schools, for which the government has made no provision.

Starmer/Reeves have ludicrously said that the VAT gained will fund 6,500 additional teachers.

It's nonsense - it was a dogmatic ill conceived act of spite - nothing more.

Many smaller private schools, including special needs, will close as they won't be able to absorb the VAT and parents won't be able to pay, and there are no places for the children in State Schools. Scandalously, parents have been asked to provide evidence they can no longer afford private school fees to secure a place at a state school.

An email sent out by Buckinghamshire council showed a mother being told her daughter had been rejected by two local secondary schools because “they are full”. She was then asked to prove her financial situation in order for her daughter to be considered for another school in the area. The mother, who asked not to be named, had applied for a place at two schools via the council’s online portal amid fears she could be priced out of her daughter’s private school by the Government's VAT raid

The email from Buckinghamshire council said: “Unfortunately we cannot offer any places at your preferred school/s as they are full”. The email continued: “In this circumstance, we would normally advocate that [the child] should remain at their current school. However, if you can provide evidence that you can no longer finance the independent school fees, please advise and we can make a local authority non-preference allocation.”

Councils must not ask for parents’ financial status:

All children in England between the ages of five and 16 are legally entitled to a free place at a state school. The Government’s school admissions code also states that in some cases, local authorities may seek supplementary information from parents if schools are oversubscribed.

However, the code states that councils must not ask for information relating to a family’s financial status, criminal convictions, language ability, disabilities or medical conditions. Buckinghamshire council’s website claims it has received a “large number of applications” for schools in Aylesbury and High Wycombe, and that schools are currently oversubscribed. Data from the council show that just five state secondary schools out of a total 38 in Buckinghamshire had places available for Year 7 students at the latest count in July, while only four had spaces for pupils in Year 8 and three in Year 9.

It comes amid concerns that some local councils could become swamped with applications if parents are priced out by fee increases as a result of the decision to add VAT at the standard rate of 20% VAT to private school fees from Jan 1 2025. Estimates drawn up by the Institute for Fiscal Studies predicting that up to 40,000 private school children could be forced out under the plans.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/06/parents-asked-prove-afford-private-fees-buckinghamshire/#:~:text=Parents have been asked to,because “they are full

Most private schools are small and many cater for children with special needs - they're not like Eton, Harrow or Westminster.

Most of those who send children to private schools are aspirational working class parents, making sacrifices to give their children a better start in life. It isn't simply about the quality of teaching, but the ethos of the school. No disruptive behaviour, respect for the teachers, children who want to learn and parents who support them, and to support the teachers too.

And no truancy either, which doesn't just affect those who are absent, but other pupils due to teachers spending extra time in trying to bring absentees back up to speed. In State schools across the academic year 2023/24, 20.7% of pupil enrolments missed 10% or more of their possible sessions and are therefore identified as persistently absent. By school type, the persistent absence rate across the academic year 2023/24 was:
  • 15.2% in state-funded primary schools
  • 26.7% in state-funded secondary schools
  • 37.6% in state-funded special schools
Maybe if the Government spent more time and effort in dealing with the epidemic of absenteeism in State schools wayward kids would get a better start in life. Much of this is down irresponsible parenting which starts are primary school age. A new report has found that 50% of parents think the toilet training task isn't solely up to them, with teacher saying they're more like babysitters than teachers.

Teachers are having to spend many hours helping young children who arrive at schools in nappies, with almost a quarter of children not toilet trained by the time they start school. The report revealed that 24% of kids in this age group are not toilet trained, while 37% are unable to dress independently. Staff also reported that 39% of children in Reception struggle to hold a pencil, 25% do not have basic language skills and 28% of kids ‘incorrectly use books’ – for example, they swipe or tap them as if using a tablet.

Strewth.

At age 3 my kids and grandkids were 'potty trained' and by age 5, knew their = names and addresses, knew the alphabet, could recognise letters, knew the names of colours, could count to 100, dress and tie their shoelaces, knew the names of shapes, could tell the time, could hold a knife fork and spoon, pencils and crayons. That's not a boast and has nothing to do with whether parents are skint or well-heeled - it's about responsible parenting.
State school kids have the same problem of schools being "full" and finding themselves having to travel ever further instead of to the nearest. This is due, as ever , to deliberate underfunding by the tories.
Bringing kids in from posh schools would bring about more pressure to improve standards and funding, instead of having them regarded (usually wrongly) as second class. Similarly with health care - if fewer were able to buy privileged care then state care would have to catch up.
But the strongest argument against both is that they build in the class system virtually from birth, with the majority getting a poorer service and regarded as a burden on the state.
PS and, of course, if these parents are so near the breadline that they can no longer afford the several £thousand a year for private education, then we would be doing them a favour and the money saved would be spent on other necessities.
Up the revolution!
 
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State school kids have the same problem of schools being "full" and finding themselves having to travel ever further instead of to the nearest. This is due, as ever , to deliberate underfunding by the tories.
Bringing kids in from posh schools would bring about more pressure to improve standards and funding, instead of having them regarded (usually wrongly) as second class. Similarly with health care - if fewer were able to buy privileged care then state care would have to catch up.
But the strongest argument against both is that they build in the class system virtually from birth, with the majority getting a poorer service and regarded as a burden on the state.
Up the revolution!
Oh the class struggle. There are many upwardly mobile people who through hard work are bettering there situation and also providing a platform for their offspring. My parents were very much working class. My grand mother was “in service”. They both worked hard to ensure we had food on the table and a roof over our heads. I was state educated, left school at 16 and did an apprenticeship. I’ve worked all my life, never been unemployed, only ever been signed off sick twice and that was for hospital stays. I have four daughters all state educated all with degrees, two are nurses, one is a project manager on the just launched Sydney metro and the other is an engineer working on autonomous agriculture equipment. After a long career I earn a very good wage, own my own house, two rental properties and all my daughters earn good salaries, yes even the nurses. As a family anyone looking at us would call us middle class but heck we have worked to get where we are. I’m pretty sick of people who look at people who have worked to improve their lot as privileged and then milk them to pay those who have sat on their buttocks while I have worked 10-12 hour days for the last 40 years.
 
.... I’m pretty sick of people who look at people who have worked to improve their lot as privileged and then milk them
What about just taxing unearned income: inherited wealth, investment income, savings interest, capital gains, rental income, etc etc?
to pay those who have sat on their buttocks
What you tend to find is that they too were working but for low wage, with no profit sharing and paying high rents.
while I have worked 10-12 hour days for the last 40 years.
Hmm, that sounds like a very poor work/life balance, no wonder you feel a little embittered.
 
Usually legally. Low wages are supported by a network of welfare benefits, effectively subsidising the employers paying the low wages. One of many ways that tax revenue finds its way straight back into their pockets. It also keeps workers on the hook in many ways.
Benefits illegally claimed are tiny compared to tax evasion but punished more severely and investigated in much more depth.
Example: The grey/black market for hand rolling tobacco has actually overtaken the legitimate supply of tobacco so the higher you tax something the more likely that criminal gangs will control supplies just as they are controlling illegal migrants entering the UK.

As for jobs..If you took away the benefits paid to workers, many would simply starve as they don't have full time jobs. They would need a wage rise of 250% to make them viable. It's just not going to happen. Employers simply couldn't afford it.

16 hours per week plus benefits is not a proper job. It's a part time job plus taxpayer subsidies at best and governments of all colours for decades have pretended to have reduced unemployment with their particular measures when in fact unemployment figures would be as many as 8 million if the benefits were removed.

All the proposed overhauls of the employment rules are just going to increase unemployment. Employers will not be able to get rid of useless workers so they will be ultra careful who they take on and contracts will be short term so that if a person proves to be useless, they will be able to get rid of them unless that is they work in the public sector where the unions will protect the useless ones.
 
What about just taxing unearned income: inherited wealth, investment income, savings interest, capital gains, rental income, etc etc?

What you tend to find is that they too were working but for low wage, with no profit sharing and paying high rents.

Hmm, that sounds like a very poor work/life balance, no wonder you feel a little embittered.
Jacob I think you know I agree with you on taxing unearned income and tax avoidance. I even don’t have a problem with inheritance tax, capital gains or tax on savings. What I do find disappointing is how ‘socialists’ think it is fine to keep squeezing the pips on what people earn. All my primary income is PAYE (small amount from rent and savings, which I pay tax on) and constantly there is baying of tax the rich put up taxes and frankly the people it hits are people like me who work dammed hard for their money and have absolutely no way to offset it, hide it or avoid it like many ‘cash in hand’ businesses do or the landed gentry do with off shore accounts. Those ‘cheats’ at both ends of the spectrum need to be held to account and government needs to stop penalising people who actually work for a living. Workers are a dying breed.

Yes my work life balance is absolute dung. I start work with China at 7am most mornings, work with Europe through the day and switch to US with meetings to 7 or 8pm most days with some days going even later. Because of this I am paid a significant wage. I like that because I can spend it on tools and other fun stuff. I don’t work weekends. My wife used to work in the social support area helping people on benefits with their finances. I’ve seen that end of the spectrum as well and frankly I used to get very annoyed at the entitlement shown by many career benifits claimants. I am 100% in favour of supporting people in need but what some people see as need is something that I have worked hard to achieve.
 
Jacob I think you know I agree with you on taxing unearned income and tax avoidance. I even don’t have a problem with inheritance tax, capital gains or tax on savings. What I do find disappointing is how ‘socialists’ think it is fine to keep squeezing the pips on what people earn.
There is no alternative way of paying for the public services which we all need including yourself.
It's too easy to blame the needy for needing support. They are much less of a burden on society e.g. of some who, as they say, arrive in private jets not leaky dinghies
 
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There is no alternative way of paying for the public services which we all need including yourself.
So you’re still focused on the easy target of taxing earnings rather than taxing the avoiders? I guess you must be one of those socialists who wallow in their rose tinted view of the righteousness of the working classes but fail to see that the majority of the people you see as worthy targets of cash grabs are actually the working class that are already contributing most to paying for the public waste propagated by inept politicians of all parties

Edit. I seem to recall that you once stood for election. I guess that explains why you are more focused on ideology than results.
 
Jacob, so you’re still focused on the easy target of taxing earnings rather than taxing the avoiders? I guess you must be one of those socialists who wallow in their rose tinted view of the righteousness of the working classes but fail to see that the majority of the people you see as worthy targets of cash grabs are actually the working class that are already contributing most to paying for the public waste propagated by inept politicians of all parties

Edit. I seem to recall that you once stood for election. I guess that explains why you are more focused on ideology than results.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
 
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