New saw

[transatlantic]

Slightly disappointed with my new hand saw, the kerf is huge its quite hard to start and leaves a really messy line.

Left is Veritas 14 tpi cross cut
Right is new Lynx 13tpi rip cut

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[AndyT]

Well, I can see why you are disappointed - that does look rather a mess.
I've never needed to try this so can't speak from experience but the conventional advice for this problem is to run a stone down each side a few times to reduce the set and the 'grabbiness' of the newly sharpened teeth. Maybe worth a try?
Before you do, is it any better in hardwood?

 

[D_W]

before stoning (which is what I normally do), there is something that may be a little bit easier without experience.

Layer a few sheets of paper on each side of the saw and squeeze the whole unit in a vise (if you can do that). It works fantastically well. If a few sheets isn't good enough, remove a sheet and repeat until you get what you want.

it looks like that was done by a machine (maybe that's true for all) and the set tends to be a little drastic when machine set.

 

[transatlantic]

Here it is in hard wood.

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[D_W]

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/arti ... ith-paper/

OK, here's the tip that i recall. One of the few I've seen from Chris S that I've actually ever done and found useful (but probably because it's Mike W's) - i didn't remember the paper stuff very accurately I've probably used anti rust paper because that's what's in my shop.

Stoning and filing set off is OK, too, but there's quite a bit to remove on that saw and it may lead to a re-do - it's up to you.

 

[AndyT]

It wasn't just extra-soft wood then!

Dave's suggestion sounds worth a try.

 

[profchris]

Looks like a good tip. And if it doesn't fix the problem, you won't have put marks on the saw if you need to send it back.

 

[D_W]

I've hammered excess set out of some of mine, too, but I wouldn't suggest it for someone new!!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Two methods that have worked for me.

1. Squeeze teeth in vice jaws. Make sure the jaws are smooth and hard. Cast iron probably isn't hard enough - ideally, it needs to be harder than the saw blade. You don't need the paper, the springback (elasticity) in the metal will leave some set both sides, which is what you're aiming for.

2. Place saw held horizontal with teeth on a hard, flat surface, and gently hammer all along side of toothline with a smallish hammer - say 8oz or so. Turn over and repeat. The hammering does need to be gentle - you're just trying to induce a little bending, not flatten or extrude the steel. Try hard to hammer each tooth evenly, but if one or two teeth escape treatment first try, treat that area again.

In either case, it's probably wise to check the rake angle the saw was supplied with. If you're new to rip cut saws, rakes near zero can be hard to start. if the rake is near zero, try to support the saw in starting such that you just glide the teeth onto the workpiece very gently, like bringing a plane in to land. Once a kerf is started, then relax the grip and allow the weight of the saw to do the work.

Hope that helps - that should be a perfectly good saw, but it just needs a little bit of tuning before it'll work really well.

(PS - Nice cat! Has he or she got you trained, yet?)

 

[deema]

What’s is the TPI of the saw, it looks to have very large teeth. The larger the teeth, often the larger the kerf.

I totally disagree with stoning any saw ever! It causes the teeth one side to be thinner than on the other. These teeth wear faster and soon enough the saw starts pulling in the cut to one side.

It looks to me that’s it the TPI that’s the problem. Worst case just fine all the teeth off and resharpen. I do this with every saw I get!

 

[MikeG.]

Don't judge a saw by it's set or sharpening. These are things within your control. That definitely looks like way too much set to me, and I would take a hammer to the teeth as described well by others. I've never been a fan of rubbing a stone along the outside of the teeth. Straight after you've gone to all the trouble of putting a nice sharp edge on them that does seem a bit nuts. But hey, if it works, it works.

 

[transatlantic]

I have a metal vice but its only 4" wide, so would need to do it in stages.

Can I not just sandwich the blade between some aluminium bar and clamp it with a series of f-clamps?



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[Cheshirechappie]

I have a metal vice but its only 4" wide, so would need to do it in stages.

Can I not just sandwich the blade between some aluminium bar and clamp it with a series of f-clamps?



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Squeezing in stages in a 4" vice is fine. Well, it worked for me, anyway! Not so sure about the aluminium - it's a lot softer than saw steel, so the teeth will dig into the ali rather than bend. Also, you'd need a lot of pressure, evenly applied, to do the whole length of the blade.

The worst part of squeezing the saw in the vice is the anticipation. After all, it just seems 'wrong' on a bright, shiny new tool you've just paid good money for. However, actually doing it once you've psyched yourself up is dead easy. Just close the vice jaws on to the blade, bit of pressure, release, move blade along, repeat. Literally takes less than a minute to do, and the difference to the saw's performance will probably be night and day!

 

[D_W]

I have a metal vice but its only 4" wide, so would need to do it in stages.

Can I not just sandwich the blade between some aluminium bar and clamp it with a series of f-clamps?



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My vise is the same - 4 or 4 1/2 inches or something. You have to do it in stages unless you have some other method.

It works fine.

 

[deema]

Spring steel does not like being bent, bending teeth back is a good way of snapping them off! It can work, but you then normally need to re-set them as the set won’t be even. In short, don’t put the saw in a vice.

The normal way of reducing set is to just sharpen the saw.

By the time you've mucked around with vice etc, you could just strip all the teeth off and resharpen to what ever tooth count you want with the proper amount of set. A 14” saw takes about 20mins to do with say a 13tpi rip cut.

 

[D_W]

Spring steel does not like being bent, bending teeth back is a good way of snapping them off! It can work, but you then normally need to re-set them as the set won’t be even. In short, don’t put the saw in a vice.

The normal way of reducing set is to just sharpen the saw.

By the time you've mucked around with vice etc, you could just strip all the teeth off and resharpen to what ever tooth count you want with the proper amount of set. A 14” saw takes about 20mins to do with say a 13tpi rip cut.

Old steel sometimes doesn't like being bent back, nor being set at all sometimes.

It won't be a problem with a modern saw (if it was, wenzloff wouldn't have done it).

filing teeth in this saw from the start would be a mistake in wasted time - the vise trick takes about 2 minutes. Retoothing a saw accurately with an even toothline in tooth size and height and then setting again and being done in 20 minutes would be something I'd have to see on video (and would cost a file). If the very worst happens and these teeth become brittle (they won't), it would then still only take the same amount of time to joint them off and refile.

 

[deema]

The saw looks to be around 10 / 11 TPI. And is being contrasted against a Veritas saw which is probably a 14, 16 or 20TPI. A 10 TPI saw has a greater set than a finer toothed saw generally. No amount or set changing will make two saws with different TPI cut the same. You have to retooth the saw to achieve comparable results.

Spring steel is not designed to be bent. Old or new, it does not like being bent and will break if it’s bent too much / often.

In a previous thread on this forum I’ve been through how to recut / sharpen a hand saws teeth. The times were taken at the time, I’ve shown a number of people how to sharpen a saw and always start them off with a saw stripped of its teeth. Most people, who have never done it before can have a really good cutting saw within 45 minutes, after you’ve done a couple of saws, it takes about 5 strokes of a file for each tooth for the tooth form stipulated it takes around 20 mins. To touch up a saw takes one stroke / tooth which is around a 5 minute job. To retooth a saw, will generally dull one of the three facets of a saw file, not a file.

I know a few people have used my thread on here to renovate an old saw, and none have suggested that the timings I give are seriously in error. If it takes you longer, have a go using the ideas in the thread.

 

[D_W]

I agree with your resharpening time. It's a touch or two per tooth. But I'd like to see a 14 inch crosscut saw (or whatever this may be) with the teeth jointed off, new teeth filed in, cross cut (rip is OK, I guess - certainly would be quicker) set and tested in 20 minutes.

I've recut a lot of saw teeth (and made half a dozen saws), which is why I'm saying that I'd like to see it on video.

But I've never had saw teeth break on a new saw. I've jointed off and recut teeth on quite a few old saws and found a tooth break when setting at the end - that's a real bummer. But this saw will be fine. If it's not, then he would have to do what you suggested, but only *if* the teeth break off.

I'd imagine pax doesn't use 1095, so there's probably more forgiveness yet. My motive isn't to prove you wrong, it's to save the OP from doing unnecessary work.

If he's already got a saw with 14 teeth per inch, he'll probably find something around 10/11 quite useful, especially for tenons or longer crosscuts.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

If there's spring steel in a saw, and it's fragile enough to break if bent ... why would anyone risk using a saw set? After all, a saw set is used to bend teeth to avoid the plate binding in use, so if it the teeth will bend one way, surely they can be bent the other way a bit to reduce the set, if required or preferred? Slainte.

 

[transatlantic]

It's 13tpi (as mentioned in the first post)

As it's brand new and I have zero experience in filing teeth, I would rather not attempt filing them. Going to try the vice thing first.

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