Myths & Mysteries

[Gerard Scanlan]

Hello John,

I understand what you are saying. Perhaps the arument for using a vice is based on the working height as the work bench puts the work piece higher up. Paul later shows how to stop the workpiece from slipping. Using the vice did not instantly appeal to me either, I usually drill out mortises and then clean them up with a chisel. At least you can disagree with him without insulting him. Not a gift everyone on this forum/thread has mastered.

Gerard

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That's the way you chop a mortice with a b&d workmate and a random selection of someone else's tools.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

But chopping a mortice with the stock held in the vice; and using a bevel-edged chisel to do it?
I would have earned a clout around the ear from my woodwork teacher for either of those sins.

I don't see any real problem with the demonstrated technique John-- maybe the vise could have been belted up a bit tighter at the beginning, but that's about all. It was only a dinky little mortice suitable for something like a piece of furniture. I've done the same or similar myself many a time over the decades with a bevel edged chisel, and in a vise. It's all easy enough to control and with enough practice keeping everything lined up and vertical is quite easy.

Now, if your plan is to knock seven bells out of a big lump of green or air dried oak for a barn or wood framed building with a mortice chisel and hulking great mallet I'd agree with you-- fix it all down on top of the bench over a leg or something.

I don't whack my students around the head for doing what Paul Sellers did in his video by the way. In fact, it's possible I'll have shown them that technique or something very similar some time in the past, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[DTR]

I hear what you are saying. However Paul Sellers is showing how he does it, how he would like his students to do it, but he is not ordering anyone. Although I could understand some people might find his style has that air.

I started reading Paul's blog after seeing him at Cressing Temple, but stopped reading for this very reason. I certainly respect his craftmanship (and I agree with many things he says) but I find his writing very "holier than thou"

 

[Benchwayze]

Sgian,

True, the joint he's cutting is no major undertaking. By hand though I'd still rather do it cramped to the bench; with a good piece of Marples Morticing steel. (His mallet is okay though-but.) Like I said, we all have our ways. I was taught, that what he is doing there amounts to abusing the vice. So, I'll just beg to differ on this one.

As for the whacks around the head, I am going back to the early nineteen-fifties of course and I appreciate no instructor could, or would, go that far these days.

 

[Jacob]

I'd do it flat on the bench but with no cramp.

I don't think he's that "holier than thou" : some appalling examples spring to mind such as St Jim Krenov and his pseudo mystical ramblings - and a much less competent woodworker to boot (just an old hippy with a router. :roll: )
Though St Jim had the edge in design, which I think is Sellers' weakest link. But then a lot of our circus performers are weak in this way. Worse; many don't seem to make anything at all from one year to the next! Doesn't stop them pontificating on.
Sellers is just a bit blunt - he's from oop narth remember!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Worse; many don't seem to make anything at all from one year to the next! Doesn't stop them pontificating on.

You've got me there Jacob. I haven't made a darned thing worth a toss for myself or paying customers in a while-- I'm too busy helping students get their stuff made to get anything interesting or entirely of my own done. Still, it doesn't stop me pontificating and generally talking cobblers from time to time on forums. And when my course closes in a couple of years and I'm out of a job maybe I'll have to start getting productive again. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

That's OK Richard I wasn't thinking of you!
Er, I'd better not say who I was thinking of.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I've a big problem with Mr. sellers. If you post yourself on Youtube, showing methods of work, you are in fact assuming the role of teacher. Therefore you should not show methods which are idiosyncratc to yourself WITHOUT some sort of disclaimer stating that this is not the best way, or classical way of doing something, but an expedient or a convenient shortcut. You should not cut a mortice in a vice! You do not chop one with bevel edge chisels. You might get away with it. But one of his disciples might not realise this and try to chop a house door frame mortice in an oak stile. He or she won't know that tickling a bit of scrap as in the video is not the same. And since his vice would be screwed rather weakly into a pine top, probably knock the thing loose from its fixings. Or is that a failsafe--the screws fixing the vice failing before the mechanism is damaged or the cast iron cracked? I can't see why you would not support the work on the benchtop, it's right there holding the vice off the floor! Better still, use a morticing stool. If you do not have mortice chisels, then don't chop them. Bevel edged chisels don't want too much of a pounding, won't track as straight as square sided chisels and won't be sharpened for optimal chopping. Drilling out the waste first and then paring the rest IS perfectly acceptable, will be speedy, accurate and give better results, so why not show the best way to make a mortice with bevel edge chisels?

I'm afraid the people here who seem to justify everything by stating that there is more than one way to do something correctly are making a poor assumption. Yes, there can be one or two alternatives to do the same operation well, but there are hundreds more which are flawed and these should never be promoted as some sort of instruction. Please, we should only promote methods which are best practice to those who want to learn and let them find their own expedients later. Starting with the slap dash will never help those who want to do good work acheive it, and it is unfair on them putting them under a disadvantage from the start.

Incidentally, Jacob, being offensive to other craftsmen does not help promote the mediocre ones you seem to find yourself aspiring to. If you want to make utterly unfounded comments about Jim Krenov, be sure that people who knew the man a little bit are not reading. If you actually want to learn something about him, rather than just hurl insults form a point of ignorance, just ask me.

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

This is where I got it gents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPBkO2chZxk

Interesting. He works towards the ends of the mortise BEVEL side first, which is traditional Japanese practise, and also advocated by J. Maynard of the renowned Shoreditch technical college.

On workpiece fixing, I reckon the little old Stanley vices would take some beating, at least for this purpose:

Herewith from a 1920's catalogue:

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...
Interesting. He works towards the ends of the mortise BEVEL side first, .....

You'd have to with a bevel edge chisel - it'd jam in tight if you tried it face side forwards, as with a mortice chisel.

 

[Jacob]

I've a big problem with Mr. sellers. If you post yourself on Youtube, showing methods of work, you are in fact assuming the role of teacher. Therefore you should not show methods which are idiosyncratc to yourself WITHOUT some sort of disclaimer stating that this is not the best way, or classical way of doing something, but an expedient or a convenient shortcut.

Surely not. there's all manner of loony woodwork nonsense on Youtube. Caveat emptor innit! In any case what about those who don't know that they don't know "the classical way" etc? You yourself recommend drilling out waste first. Many would say that this is an amateurish and slow way, unless you are doing big mortices 1"+ in oak. In any case anything which is an expedient or a convenient shortcut is surely a good thing? The classical way (if there is such a thing) would surely be the best expedient or a convenient shortcut.

....
Incidentally, Jacob, being offensive to other craftsmen does not help promote the mediocre ones you seem to find yourself aspiring to. If you want to make utterly unfounded comments about Jim Krenov, ....

Based on what I have read, I stand by what I say. He says it himself one way or another - very defensive in interviews and continually referring to himself as an amateur etc. I do credit him with producing some pretty little objects ("tobacco cabinets" ?) but he didn't do a lot did he?

 

[monkeybiter]

YouTube is a useful and free depositary for all manner of video, but I think someone would be a little foolish to put too much faith in a source that lies alongside dogs on skateboards and happyslappers. YouTube has succeeded by hosting idiosyncratic behaviour for all to gawp at, you can't protect everyone that may be gullible enough to believe without question everything they are told.

 

[woodbrains]

I've a big problem with Mr. sellers. If you post yourself on Youtube, showing methods of work, you are in fact assuming the role of teacher. Therefore you should not show methods which are idiosyncratc to yourself WITHOUT some sort of disclaimer stating that this is not the best way, or classical way of doing something, but an expedient or a convenient shortcut.

Surely not. there's all manner of loony woodwork nonsense on Youtube. Caveat emptor innit! In any case what about those who don't know that they don't know "the classical way" etc? You yourself recommend drilling out waste first. Many would say that this is an amateurish and slow way, unless you are doing big mortices 1"+ in oak. In any case anything which is an expedient or a convenient shortcut is surely a good thing? The classical way (if there is such a thing) would surely be the best expedient or a convenient shortcut.

....
Incidentally, Jacob, being offensive to other craftsmen does not help promote the mediocre ones you seem to find yourself aspiring to. If you want to make utterly unfounded comments about Jim Krenov, ....

Based on what I have read, I stand by what I say. He says it himself one way or another - very defensive in interviews and continually referring to himself as an amateur etc. I do credit him with producing some pretty little objects ("tobacco cabinets" ?) but he didn't do a lot did he?

Jacob, You cannot even read a post correctly. If you only have bevel edge chisels you would not chop but drill then pare. I have mortice chisels and would use these to chop. Neither ways are amateurish, both use the tools correctly and give good results. I also have a slot morticer, a hollow chisel morticer and a router; all of which can be used to make mortices. But I do them in a fit manner for the work, the tool, my safety, etc. etc. I would not, for instance, chop dovetails with registered mortice chisels. Some things just should not be done.

I have come across many vices with crumbled threads in the cast iron, I have seen joiners on site break BE chisels by chopping with them and I have seen more benches than I can count, with the fixings torn out or loose jaws with maltreatment. This cannot be defended by anything other than bloody mindedness.

And Krenov, as I have said before, meant AMATEUR in the real sense of the word. i.e. for love. He always promoted doing ones best work and could not stand shortcuts and bad practice. Deriding someone who did good work is more than a little churlish.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

....
Jacob, You cannot even read a post correctly.

No need to be churlish - FFS look at the thread. :roll: Sellers is chopping with a bevel edge chisel. Not good IMHO but better than drilling and paring your way!

......

And Krenov, as I have said before, meant AMATEUR in the real sense of the word. i.e. for love. He always promoted doing ones best work and could not stand shortcuts and bad practice. Deriding someone who did good work is more than a little churlish.

Mike.

No it isn't churlish. St Jim isn't beyond criticism. He went for shortcuts and bad practice - particularly those bridle jointed panels. Nothing wrong with being amateur but he meant it in the normal way i.e. untrained. I don't think he knew too much about conventional trad woodwork.

 

[woodbrains]

....
Jacob, You cannot even read a post correctly.

No need to be churlish - FFS look at the thread. :roll: Sellers is chopping with a bevel edge chisel. Not good IMHO but better than drilling and paring your way!

......

And Krenov, as I have said before, meant AMATEUR in the real sense of the word. i.e. for love. He always promoted doing ones best work and could not stand shortcuts and bad practice. Deriding someone who did good work is more than a little churlish.

Mike.

No it isn't churlish. St Jim isn't beyond criticism. He went for shortcuts and bad practice - particularly those bridle jointed panels. Nothing wrong with being amateur but he meant it in the normal way i.e. untrained. I don't think he knew too much about conventional trad woodwork.

In fact, JK was trained by Karl Malmsten, a fine and noted maker who was also an admirer of the British Arts and Crafts movement even before it found favour in Britain. He was also a trained wooden boatbuilder, so there was probably nothing of any worth about traditional joinery that JK did not know about. Also, AMATEUR was always meant in its literal sense; there are plenty of writings referencing the same if you could be bothered reading and understanding them. I also know this to be the case from some of the conversations we had.

The bridle joint has a much greater glue area than a mortice and tenon and since both members are sawn rather than chopped have a finer and closer fitting glueable surface. With normal PVA they are at least as strong as mortices and tenons and we tested them to destruction to prove it. This is the wrong forum to talk about such things, however, but if you like I will give you a few pointers in the techniques section as it is clear that you are sadly lacking.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

...... This is the wrong forum to talk about such things,......

Why on earth not? But I don't think I'll bother. Too much churlishness and bad temper showing already. Some people just can't hold a grown up conversation. :roll:
PS I've no objection to your being churlish about Sellers and I reserve the right to be churlish about St Jim, but you yourself should try to restrain your churlish inclinations - it makes for tedious and bad tempered threads.

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

I am a fan of both Krenov and Sellers.
I am equally interested in what people like and dislike about their work and methods.
A good discussion is what this forum is all about.
It is a pity though when people start calling others names that is where the usefulness of the forum stops. :roll:
Aren't we the odd balls? I mean we discuss woodworking on a forum with people we have usually never met and probably never will. (hammer)

 

[monkeybiter]

Aren't we the odd balls? I mean we discuss woodworking on a forum with people we have usually never met and probably never will. (hammer)

And still, unfortunately for everyone concerned, potentially talented and knowledgable contributors to the discussion cling to their egos and resort to adolescent ramblings and remarks sooner than simple factual discussion or dignified silence. It's a recurrent shame.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

=D> =D> =D> =D> +1 !