Mortice chisels

[Trafalgar]

...... He trained at Barnsley so I don't guess he's a complete dodo.,......

He trained at Barnsley so he's probably an incredible fusspot and only used to pointlessly slow and expensive work

I assume that the people who buy furniture from the firm appreciate that they're fusspots. Unless I've misinterpreted the history of the firm, Barnsley intentionally cultivated a reputation of working extremely carefully and to very close tolerances.

 

[custard]

I assume that the people who buy furniture from the firm appreciate that they're fusspots.

Yes, they generally do.

http://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/pro ... y/storage/

 

[Trafalgar]

No doubt the hidden joinery is as fully developed and well-executed as the overall style and exteriors.

Beautiful work. Prices aren't in the nosebleed range in my view.

 

[memzey]

This is a fascinating thread on a topic I didn't think could be so contentious. Thank you everyone for making it such a good read. I fall some way short of having the competence and experience necessary to add something meaningful to it but I do have two books I regularly return to for insights when I need them (which is quite often); Wearing and Joyce. I would say that pages 41 and 42 of Wearing's "Essential" are a good read in the context of our current discussion:

 

[AndyT]

One thing that nobody has mentioned... When I learned some woodworking at school in the 70s, for narrow mortices in softwood (probably about 1/4" wide) we had to make them without using a mallet. (Mallets were allowed later on.)

I have done this since, as an experiment, but don't make a habit of it.

Has anyone else tried this, or even do it as normal?

 

[Jacob]

This is a fascinating thread on a topic I didn't think could be so contentious. Thank you everyone for making it such a good read. I fall some way short of having the competence and experience necessary to add something meaningful to it but I do have two books I regularly return to for insights when I need them (which is quite often); Wearing and Joyce. I would say that pages 41 and 42 of Wearing's "Essential" are a good read in the context of our current discussion:.........

Wearing is a bit of a curate's egg. Good in parts - take nothing as gospel.

 

[D_W]

One thing that nobody has mentioned... When I learned some woodworking at school in the 70s, for narrow mortices in softwood (probably about 1/4" wide) we had to make them without using a mallet. (Mallets were allowed later on.)

I have done this since, as an experiment, but don't make a habit of it.

Has anyone else tried this, or even do it as normal?

Not in mortices, per se, but in plane making I've tried various methods of penultimate material removal and push chiseling was one of those. I can't get on with it, too hard on elbows. Presume the mortising wasn't quite as hard? It would be a good lesson in how hard it is to remove material at various thicknesses.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

One thing that nobody has mentioned... When I learned some woodworking at school in the 70s, for narrow mortices in softwood (probably about 1/4" wide) we had to make them without using a mallet. (Mallets were allowed later on.)

I have done this since, as an experiment, but don't make a habit of it.

Has anyone else tried this, or even do it as normal?

I recall Adam Cherubini in the USA demonstrating how to pare mortices by pushing the chisel with a shoulder. Adam was one who recreated 18c methods at woodshows.

I wonder what timber he used?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Cheshirechappie]

One thing that nobody has mentioned... When I learned some woodworking at school in the 70s, for narrow mortices in softwood (probably about 1/4" wide) we had to make them without using a mallet. (Mallets were allowed later on.)

I have done this since, as an experiment, but don't make a habit of it.

Has anyone else tried this, or even do it as normal?

Yes - many years ago, I did my woodworking in the upstairs back bedroom of a three-bed semi (having moved from the kitchen). To avoid annoying the neighbours (who were lovely people) I did as much as I could without malleting or hammering.

Cutting mortices in softwoods, and softer hardwoods, by paring and shoulder-pushing gives perfectly acceptable results, but - oh boy - is it SLOW! It hurts your shoulder after a while, too.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

This is a fascinating thread on a topic I didn't think could be so contentious. Thank you everyone for making it such a good read. I fall some way short of having the competence and experience necessary to add something meaningful to it but I do have two books I regularly return to for insights when I need them (which is quite often); Wearing and Joyce. I would say that pages 41 and 42 of Wearing's "Essential" are a good read in the context of our current discussion:.........

Wearing is a bit of a curate's egg. Good in parts - take nothing as gospel.

Jacob is a bit of a curate's egg. Good in parts - take nothing as gospel. The only difference is that it's not hard to find the good bits in Wearing, whereas Jacob....

 

[memzey]

Well I wouldn't be too hard on Jacob. I think he wants be helpful with his critiques and tries to make things simpler for the beginner in particular. In this case though I haven't come across a more clear, concise and helpful book for the beginner than Wearing although that's not to say such a book doesn't exist. Joyce is certainly more comprehensive but less about basic skill building I find. Ironically Wearing certainly agrees with Jacob on the drilling of holes if you read the last lines on page 42!

 

[AndyT]

I think there is a normal, common effect at work here and often in other discussions. Many of us naturally prefer the methods we were taught, above other methods suggested later as alternatives.
Jacob prefers to mortise the way he was trained by his instructor.

If I could remember how I was taught to mortise, I'd probably prefer that, but it's something I've needed to re-learn.
But in general, I can read Wearing and recognise plenty of things imperfectly remembered from what we were taught in school woodwork lessons, so I agree that he provides a good guide to beginners, especially on fundamentals such as establishing a face side and face edge.

We're all a bit different!

 

[Jacob]

......
Jacob prefers to mortise the way he was trained by his instructor.......!

Because it works, is fast, and requires least kit. Prior to that I was fiddling about just like many of the posters on here.
Also I did get the chance to use it - I made a lot of stuff by hand until I got a morticer. Earning a living - not for fun!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I think Wearing was referring to chain drilling being unnecessary, which isn't the same as drilling one relief hole for the waste to fall away. Chain drilling is a waste of time if the mortice is to be chopped with mortice chisels. A single relief hole does have a useful purpose. It may not be necessary for some people, but then again if it enables an advantage for others, then it is a valid device.

Chain drilling, followed by paring with a bench chisel, similarly is useful for making mortices that are out if the ordinary. My bench for example, had massive through mortices. Something in the order of 4 1/2 inches long, 1 1/4 wide into 4 by 4 stock. Chain drilling was my preferred method then!

What Jacob has trouble in understanding, versatility is not a weakness. We can do things in many ways and get the right result, and we can do things differently than how we were taught. The teachers give us a starting point from which we advance from, not dogmatically follow the 'rules'. It is a Japanese adage that says, it is a poor master, who's student does not better him. I expect Jacob's teacher might be a bit disappointed.

Mike.

 

[Racers]

Being an autodidact in most things I do, I have developed my own methods which over come the problem I have experienced.
Not having shown a single way of doing something allows you to look at other peoples methods and your own and pick the parts that work together, and for you and the task at hand.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

......
What Jacob has trouble in understanding, versatility is not a weakness. We can do things in many ways and get the right result, .....

You can do it how you like.
I'm just telling of how I do it and why I think it's the fastest and most efficient.
The whole topic has been over thought and is heavily infected with woodworking memes.

PS feel free to criticise what I say but it'd be better if you didn't make it personal - save me the trouble of answering in the same vein: "what so-called "woodbrains" is laughably incapable of grasping..." etc etc :lol:

 

[D_W]

Hello,

I think Wearing was referring to chain drilling being unnecessary, which isn't the same as drilling one relief hole for the waste to fall away. Chain drilling is a waste of time if the mortice is to be chopped with mortice chisels. A single relief hole does have a useful purpose. It may not be necessary for some people, but then again if it enables an advantage for others, then it is a valid device.

Chain drilling, followed by paring with a bench chisel, similarly is useful for making mortices that are out if the ordinary. My bench for example, had massive through mortices. Something in the order of 4 1/2 inches long, 1 1/4 wide into 4 by 4 stock. Chain drilling was my preferred method then!

What Jacob has trouble in understanding, versatility is not a weakness. We can do things in many ways and get the right result, and we can do things differently than how we were taught. The teachers give us a starting point from which we advance from, not dogmatically follow the 'rules'. It is a Japanese adage that says, it is a poor master, who's student does not better him. I expect Jacob's teacher might be a bit disappointed.

Mike.

Presumably, the context of what we're working on with hand tools is mostly cabinet sized work. Bench mortises are more like building a bar. For what it's worth, I drilled the waste out, too, and I am a non-driller type on all cabinet stuff.

I wouldn't assume someone was talking about timberframe-sized stuff unless they said they were, though. Unless jacob corrects what I'm assuming, I'd see it as he's talking about drilling a hole in a small cabinet mortise whereas the method itself can remove that waste without sending it to go somewhere.

Personally, I can't get past the part where such a method has you working straight down into the wood after the drilled hole. The chisel moves so much more easily through wood at a slight or more than slight angle.

 

[D_W]

I got a couple of more chisels last week, I think the last. One are stanley copies of the blue chip chisels, old enough to have very nice bevels. I like those chisels a lot, they're a little soft but have a nice profile.

The other is a set of old firmers. I've cut a couple of dozen more mortises, and since Charlie made a big deal about poplar mortisiting, etc, the other day, I figured I'd run the bench chisels through poplar. They work really well in poplar. I've tried other bench chisels, too, but the blue chip type of bench chisels get through a mortise easier than other cheap bench chisels I have (that have thick sides).

Takes about half (seems like half, at least) of the mallet swing to do the same thing as the oval bolstered chisels. So, I tried cherry, too, and the marples worked fine. Just not as fast as the OVB chisels, which can take a much bigger bite than what I videoed the other day, now that I'm getting used to them, and still leave a clean mortise. Have to work a little bit harder with the OVB in cherry, but they're faster. Can't get around how well the levering works with them. The firmer chisels don't have the same ability.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,,....
What Jacob has trouble in understanding, versatility is not a weakness. We can do things in many ways and get the right result, and we can do things differently than how we were taught. The teachers give us a starting point from which we advance from, not dogmatically follow the 'rules'. It is a Japanese adage that says, it is a poor master, who's student does not better him. I expect Jacob's teacher might be a bit disappointed.

Mike.

What so-called "woodbrains" has trouble in understanding is what it's like when you are faced with the practical problem of doing a lot of stuff by hand as efficiently as possible - which was the lot of most woodworkers for thousands of years, and was my lot briefly when I first started up. All these half baked ideas are out of the window very quickly - when push comes to shove!

 

[Corneel]

Has this video allready been showed in this thread? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQZsPs7jaPE&list=PL6yG0ZTQ9Z7bGcp73KnPk-KC17uH1fG1L

Cutting a mortise in less then 2 minutes, 5 cm deep. He makes a through mortise which is quicker then a blind one, but still, by the time you have your piece of wood positioned under the drill press, clamped it down, inserted the drill bit etc, this guy has allready mortised all four corners of a window frame.

David Weaver showed us a nice video too some days ago. Not quite as fast as the Chinese man, but that's how chopping a mortise should look like. No fuss, no extra tools, no extra whatever, just getting the job done. I can't find the link anymore. David?

I am now somewhere halfway my 30 M&T project and am starting to get the hang of it again. Chopping a mortise is now more fun and quicker then cutting the tenons.

What I want to get at, the mortise chisel wasn't invented as a joke. It is simply the best tool for the job. No drilling, and especially no paring of the sides! The mortise chisel produces a straight hole in one go. Every other operation just increases the possibility to make a mess of it and makes the job take longer.