Mortice chisels

[Trafalgar]

All this talk of cutting mortises quickly, and speed generally, on projects that take weeks if not months on end to complete (mine included); would have taken an 18th century journeyman four days, maybe.

If boring a single hole in a mortise around an inch deep, probably eight to ten turns of a 10" sweep brace, to give room for waste material to fall into (a solid technique by the way) turns one's production schedule topsy-turvy, I'm thinking something else is wrong besides the mortise work.

Just sayin.'

 

[Jacob]

All this talk of cutting mortises quickly, and speed generally, on projects that take weeks if not months on end to complete (mine included); would have taken an 18th century journeyman four days, maybe.

If boring a single hole in a mortise around an inch deep, probably eight to ten turns of a 10" sweep brace, to give room for waste material to fall into (a solid technique by the way) turns one's production schedule topsy-turvy, I'm thinking something else is wrong besides the mortise work.

Just sayin.'

Just sayin' it doesn't help particularly. Try chopping a mortice without pre drilling and you will see.
I'd never heard of this starter hole idea until now. Is it new?

 

[iNewbie]

Probably not - the hollow chisel morticer was late 18 hundreds iirc.

 

[Jacob]

Probably not - the hollow chisel morticer was late 18 hundreds iirc.

We are talking about hand processes in case you hadn't noticed.

 

[Trafalgar]

All this talk of cutting mortises quickly, and speed generally, on projects that take weeks if not months on end to complete (mine included); would have taken an 18th century journeyman four days, maybe.

If boring a single hole in a mortise around an inch deep, probably eight to ten turns of a 10" sweep brace, to give room for waste material to fall into (a solid technique by the way) turns one's production schedule topsy-turvy, I'm thinking something else is wrong besides the mortise work.

Just sayin.'

Just sayin' it doesn't help particularly. Try chopping a mortice without pre drilling and you will see.
I'd never heard of this starter hole idea until now. Is it new?

It's more or less a proxy for the 'central v' method, which is certainly not new. The point behind it is to create a space to allow the next chisel blow to remove an entire, or almost entire, section of material from the top to the bottom of the mortise. The material is scooped out after each pass and the mortise proceeds pretty much as per the Sellers video. There is never really any waste in the hole before the next pass is made. Obviously, the space gets larger with each chisel pass and things move along briskly from there. It's worth a try. If not the hole, then the central v method.

 

[Jacob]

..
It's more or less a proxy for the 'central v' method, which is certainly not new. The point behind it is to create a space to allow the next chisel blow to remove an entire, or almost entire, section of material from the top to the bottom of the mortise. ..

What's this "central V" ? you can start anywhere. I see it as a series of steps each cut going deeper than the one before. Can't see the point of the hole - you are cutting one with the chisel in less time than it would take to drill the hole (by hand).
Try not drilling next time you do one.
These things get over thought!

 

[iNewbie]

Probably not - the hollow chisel morticer was late 18 hundreds iirc.

We are talking about hand processes in case you hadn't noticed.

Exactly - like someone hadn't drilled it before the HCM was ever a thought... :roll:

 

[swagman]

If you have a pedestal drill handy it saves you a lot of the work in removing the waste. For stopped mortises, its clearly defines the depth you need to accomplish during final clean out of mortise floor. The extra time lost by including the drilling out stage is gained back in time with ease of excavation of the waste material. I am not so clear as to why anyone would not adequately secure the timber being mortised out, considering your working with a sharp edged mortise chisel in 1 hand, and a mallet or hammer in the other. There are a number of safe options available including locking within a vice, or using a holdfast. Sitting on the timber to secure it while its resting on a couple of saw horses might be okay for simple checking out of top and bottom wall plates to seat the studs, but in that case I am talking of work that was balancing on 2 inch of thickness. I am talking of the days when all wall plates were checked out.

 

[chaoticbob]

Thanks for all the replys guys. I hadn't anticipated that my question would result in such a wide-ranging discussion about morticing methods, but it's been a good read and I've learned a lot - in theory at least!

I think the main point I've taken from this is that there's no clear answer for someone in my position - I need to experiment and learn what works for me. I'll just get some cheapish mortice chisels and bash away, see what happens. Experiment!

Two thrones to make for the local panto, they're going to be M&T joined, if they collapse it'll be a bigger laugh than any of the jokes in the script.
Thanks again Rob.

 

[Trafalgar]

..
It's more or less a proxy for the 'central v' method, which is certainly not new. The point behind it is to create a space to allow the next chisel blow to remove an entire, or almost entire, section of material from the top to the bottom of the mortise. ..

What's this "central V" ? you can start anywhere. I see it as a series of steps each cut going deeper than the one before. Can't see the point of the hole - you are cutting one with the chisel in less time than it would take to drill the hole (by hand).
Try not drilling next time you do one.
These things get over thought!

Scroll to the bottom of the page and see the diagram and associated brief narrative will give you the idea:

http://www.amgron.clara.net/maynard40.html

Ian Kirby also uses a similar method, for what it's worth. He trained at Barnsley so I don't guess he's a complete dodo.

This is how I do it. I rarely start with a drilled hole. Sometimes I just feel like drilling a hole. So I drill one. One has to treat oneself every now and then, no?

 

[Jacob]

........
This is how I do it. I rarely start with a drilled hole. Sometimes I just feel like drilling a hole. So I drill one. One has to treat oneself every now and then, no?

Yes go for it if that's what turns you on!
But when push come to shove all these methods are out of the window and it's just man and chisel against the elements!

 

[Jacob]

...... He trained at Barnsley so I don't guess he's a complete dodo.,......

He trained at Barnsley so he's probably an incredible fusspot and only used to pointlessly slow and expensive work

 

[D_W]

This is how I do it. I rarely start with a drilled hole. Sometimes I just feel like drilling a hole. So I drill one. One has to treat oneself every now and then, no?

Wait...this is the guy who had a half hour process specified for something that would take minutes to do with a cap iron. (the website)

And he makes this comment:

>>A narrow shaving aperture is more important than cap-iron position.<<

He's not exempt from saying dopey things.

I came around too late for the ian kirby tage frid kind of lovefest, but I don't know that it matters that much. Woodworking is woodworking.

The chinese guy came to mind earlier this year after I'd sold my bandsaw, though, and I've got a few bowsaws which have been just about invaluable for certain things (cutting the body of coffin smoothers, and especially cutting really hard wood billets that is murder on a carpenter's saw - they are either pinched in the cut or their teeth set up for "regular stuff" just have too much grab).

 

[Trafalgar]

Central V or something very similar is mentioned in several of the old standards, old FW mags, if memory serves. Jeff Gorman certainly didn't "invent" it, nor did Ian Kirby.

 

[Trafalgar]

...... He trained at Barnsley so I don't guess he's a complete dodo.,......

He trained at Barnsley so he's probably an incredible fusspot and only used to pointlessly slow and expensive work

I don't really see much unorthodox here:

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/hand- ... nd-tenons/

 

[D_W]

Central V or something very similar is mentioned in several of the old standards, old FW mags, if memory serves. Jeff Gorman certainly didn't "invent" it, nor did Ian Kirby.

I tend to think that all of the most efficient methods are a variation of it, the V may just not be in the absolute middle for all of them, or it may not be symmetrical. It's easier to cut diagonal to the grain than directly across it and someone cutting mortises in large numbers (when people did such things by hand) would notice it.

Keeps you away from the ends of the mortise until you're doing your finish work, too, which is going to save a bruise sooner or later.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Keeps you away from the ends of the mortise until you're doing your finish work, too, which is going to save a bruise sooner or later.

It all depends on what the mortice is for. A tenon with cosmetic shoulders will hide bruising. This knowledge makes it easier to remove chips as there is no need to be obsessive about the mortice ends.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

...... He trained at Barnsley so I don't guess he's a complete dodo.,......

He trained at Barnsley so he's probably an incredible fusspot and only used to pointlessly slow and expensive work

I don't really see much unorthodox here:

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/hand- ... nd-tenons/

A very individualistic account and full of oddities - too many to go into!
Oddest is cutting the mortice on the far end rather than the near end, and all that pointless and difficult-looking levering.
Also he's plain wrong about the sides of chisel needing to be square - to what he calls "the flat back face" - why not just "face" in the old fashioned way?
And that "layering" method looks completely impractical - in fact it is roughly what I was doing prior to being told how to do it properly by a tutor, many years ago.

Levering - you can cut the whole mortice without any levering at all. If chips are stuck then this is where a vice can come in useful - hold the workpiece and poke out the chips on a through mortice - a hardwood drift the size of tenon is one way - it also scrapes the sides. But those desperate to lever get their chance removing chips from a blind mortice (when it's finished) - sometimes best done in the vice with a smaller bevel edge chisel.

 

[Trafalgar]

I totally agree with you about the levering. That's why you don't need a chisel as thick as a railroad spike for mortising. It's a total waste of tool steel.

Kirby, himself, doesn't use the 'layering method' but the central V. The waste falls into the space created by the V cuts and is then just lifted out (more or less the same situation when boring a starter hole). This is why a plane bevel-edged chisel works fine with this method.

There's a school of thought, I suppose, on the chisels. Lie-Nielsen makes theirs rectangular. I'm practically positive that my Marples boxwood handled ones were made that way. If they have a parallelogram shape I cannot distinguish it by eye or square. I don't think they were altered by a previous owner. I think it's a minor quibble. I've never run into a moment's trouble.

 

[Trafalgar]

Central V or something very similar is mentioned in several of the old standards, old FW mags, if memory serves. Jeff Gorman certainly didn't "invent" it, nor did Ian Kirby.

I tend to think that all of the most efficient methods are a variation of it, the V may just not be in the absolute middle for all of them, or it may not be symmetrical. It's easier to cut diagonal to the grain than directly across it and someone cutting mortises in large numbers (when people did such things by hand) would notice it.

Keeps you away from the ends of the mortise until you're doing your finish work, too, which is going to save a bruise sooner or later.

It definitely does not have to be in dead center or perfectly shaped, though the point behind the method in getting to depth is that two cuts each meet on the way down and the chip is cut and released with a lift and not a lever (or at least not a vigorous leverage meant to release essentially uncut or partially cut material at the bottom). If the cuts for the V are too sloppy then the purpose is to an extent defeated, at least until you get to depth.

You're right, in using this method there's really never any sort of hard levering that would damage the ends of the mortise on a planned two-shoulder rather than four-shouldered tenon. But regardless, it's a method that seems to go faster to me, rather than trying to chop across the length of the whole mortise several times until depth is finally reached. With the central v, you cut from top to bottom and then move on, never to come back to that area again.

The cuts are at a bit of an angle until you get to the very ends and the chisel moves through these angled cuts much easier than chopping straight down.