More hand saws for restoration? Advice please.

[AndyT]

I've read through the advice from the Disston booklet, as quoted by Swagman.

Jacob, I don't think you need to object to it - it agrees with what you wrote!

It says that Jointing (aka Topping) is not part of routine sharpening and only needs to be done if a saw has uneven teeth.

So, if a user carefully maintains the sharpness of a saw by filing it carefully, without changing the shape of the teeth, jointing is not needed.

AndyT; you might need to read that paragraph again.

JOINTING

To be done only when the teeth are uneven or incorrectly shaped,
as explained above). Unless the teeth are regular in size and shape
the set can never be regular and it is useless to attempt to regulate
them without "jointing" until all are of equal height.

Thanks, but I've read it again and I can't make it mean anything else. To paraphrase:

If you keep the teeth regular (ie by careful filing without changing their shape) then jointing is not necessary. If you fail to maintain the shape of the teeth and they need to be regulated, then jointing is the first step in getting them regular again, followed by filing and setting.

What do you think it means?

 

[Jacob]

The point is (no pun intended) the teeth can be 'regulated' without 'jointing' (i.e. flattening the whole length) if you are careful.
A lot of advice in books (if it's any good at all) is for beginners looking for answers e.g. the two bevel sharpening of chisels and plane blades; 'default' advice. Eventually you get beyond that and do things differently.
The big mistake is to treat these things as gospel.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Not quite sure what the argument is here. I've read quite a lot of the stuff that's out there about saws (probably not all!), and seen a few videos, but I can't recall any advice to top (or joint) a saw at every sharpening, or even frequently.

All the advice I've seen suggest that if a saw in poor condition needs refurbishment (and some of them are in amazingly poor condition - I know because I bought some!) then topping to bring the toothline straight (or re-establish breasting) is part of the job, along with reshaping uneven teeth. Saws work better if every tooth does it's share of the cutting.

However, for in-service routine sharpening of a saw in good order, all the advice I've seen has said that several sharpenings are possible before resetting is needed, and topping is only done lightly and occasionally to keep every tooth doing it's fair share of work.

 

[D_W]

I've read through the advice from the Disston booklet, as quoted by Swagman.

Jacob, I don't think you need to object to it - it agrees with what you wrote!

It says that Jointing (aka Topping) is not part of routine sharpening and only needs to be done if a saw has uneven teeth.

So, if a user carefully maintains the sharpness of a saw by filing it carefully, without changing the shape of the teeth, jointing is not needed.

AndyT; you might need to read that paragraph again.

JOINTING

To be done only when the teeth are uneven or incorrectly shaped,
as explained above). Unless the teeth are regular in size and shape
the set can never be regular and it is useless to attempt to regulate
them without "jointing" until all are of equal height.

Thanks, but I've read it again and I can't make it mean anything else. To paraphrase:

If you keep the teeth regular (ie by careful filing without changing their shape) then jointing is not necessary. If you fail to maintain the shape of the teeth and they need to be regulated, then jointing is the first step in getting them regular again, followed by filing and setting.

What do you think it means?

it means exactly what you said. A new filer would be well served to do it in steps, though - jointing the edge and moving teeth sectionally to get them equally sized rather than jointing an entire edge briskly.

I have about five saws that I use on a regular basis (relatively heavily) and have never jointed a saw after it's been put in order. Couldn't imagine using hand saws in general if they needed to be jointed every time you wanted to sharpen them - especially rip saws if you're working from rough to finished completely by hand. Quick touch up per project and they never lose their smartness to a degree that you have to lean on them. Less than five minutes.

There are some pro saw filers on other forums (they're not pro in the sense that they'd have made it in a market when the market was professional, but in the sense that beginners will pay them $50 to do a routine sharpening now whereas it would've been a $10 equivalent service 100 years ago). The trouble is when guys like that get one abused saw after another from beginners, they start to give advice to everyone like "a saw has to be jointed every time it's sharpened" and people run with it. Nobody working entirely by hand would ever do that, even if they had to keep it secret that they weren't jointing every time to avoid forum experts pointing back to a guru.

 

[Lons]

beginners will pay them $50 to do a routine sharpening now whereas it would've been a $10 equivalent service 100 years ago

Wow that makes either the $10 extremely expensive or $50 extremely cheap as $10 in 1918 equates to about $240 these days.

Yeah I know you didn't mean it literally but were only making a point. :lol: :lol:

 

[Jacob]

........... The trouble is when guys like that get one abused saw after another from beginners, they start to give advice to everyone like "a saw has to be jointed every time it's sharpened" and people run with it. Nobody working entirely by hand would ever do that, even if they had to keep it secret that they weren't jointing every time to avoid forum experts pointing back to a guru.

It's not just the would-be-gurus; many would-be-writers go off in all innocence to consult the horny handed old craftsman. He's been doing it his own individual way, perfectly well, for many years but when asked he feels he should be giving the "correct" version as per the book he read as a lad, rather than his own untidy fast n easy method. The "correct" version myth gets perpetuated as gospel.
My favourite is the DT gradient idea of 1/6 for softwood and 1/8 for hardwood. Somebody made this up many years ago and it just won't go away. It's good enough for those who need to be told. Some move on to a daringly radical compromise of 1/7 :roll: then many years later they realise they can do just what they like.

PS sorry this thread is rambling off-topic a bit - remind again what it was about; jam making or something?

 

[Tasky]

For the record - If you wanted to sell them, maybe clean them up a little bit, but certainly no need to go on an all-out restoration mission. Enough people read Paul Sellers and other blogs, that they would happily do a bit of light finishing restoration themselves.

Besides, there's a chap who sells his 'restored' tools at our local antiques place - Everything cleaned and shined to within an inch of its life - Every metal surface looks like it was personally chromed by Harley and Davidson themselves, not a shred of patina left..... it's quite saddening!

 

[Racers]

I usually top the teeth after blackening them with a sharpy, just a light pass to form a small flat that I use as a guide to know when to stop filing.

Pete

 

[Lons]

Thanks Tasky, that's what I intend to do, just a light clean and sell them probably as a job lot.

 

[D_W]

........... The trouble is when guys like that get one abused saw after another from beginners, they start to give advice to everyone like "a saw has to be jointed every time it's sharpened" and people run with it. Nobody working entirely by hand would ever do that, even if they had to keep it secret that they weren't jointing every time to avoid forum experts pointing back to a guru.

It's not just the would-be-gurus; many would-be-writers go off in all innocence to consult the horny handed old craftsman. He's been doing it his own individual way, perfectly well, for many years but when asked he feels he should be giving the "correct" version as per the book he read as a lad, rather than his own untidy fast n easy method. The "correct" version myth gets perpetuated as gospel.
My favourite is the DT gradient idea of 1/6 for softwood and 1/8 for hardwood. Somebody made this up many years ago and it just won't go away. It's good enough for those who need to be told. Some move on to a daringly radical compromise of 1/7 :roll: then many years later they realise they can do just what they like.

PS sorry this thread is rambling off-topic a bit - remind again what it was about; jam making or something?

Surely, there must be failed dovetails everywhere from use of the wrong angle. I've only ever seen one completely failed dovetail joint in person (without searching for them), and that was a half blind where the tails broke at the marked line - a failure you'd never expect to see (and I have no clue how it happened, unless there was runout on the inside of the joint).

The saw thing is, I'd guess, the desire for everyone to work to a method rather than working to a standard. Most of the really well done work that I've seen is to a standard, and not to a method. Not that methods aren't useful sometimes to get to a standard, but discussions that should be toward a standard turn into arguments over methods without any real discussion of the results.