Hand Saw Restoration and Re-teething of a 99p saw Completed

[deema]

The Eclipse 77 is still made its not called the 77, and looks a little different, but it's the same setting tool, below is one source:

https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/han.../94-370r-saw-tooth-setter-steel/p/ECL5530814G
For me, the bronze Eclipse 77 is bullet proof and you can fairly confidently buy a secondhand one for a lot less than a new one. Either option you choose will work well.

 

[deema]

Finally, a photo of the finished teeth

 

[Trafalgar]

Flawless restoration but the widespread pitting is, well, a pity.

 

[deema]

Thank you for your kind comment. You also raise a good point that I'd not covered and really should add my take on it.

The pitting is as you say a pity and it actually looks worse than it really is in the photo. They are actually only just below the surface and could in most cases have been removed with some abrasive paper. I wanted to show what could be done with an hours work, and also not have the worry that someone would follow the thread and use too much effort with the abrasive and either reduce the thickness of the plate sufficiently at the brass back line to make it vulnerable to loosing tension (the brass back not pinching the blade enough) or uneven along the tooth line making for a poor cutting action cut or dulling unevenly. So after looking at the 'problem' which is more cosmetic, (you can see how well the blade cleaned up in other shots that aren't as close up) the pits don't actually reduce the effective width of any tooth to any real degree by the having its tip exactly on a pit I left it as it is.

My original plan for this topic was to buy some Spring steel and then replace the plate and show how for not a great outlay that a nice handle and brass back can be used from a discarded saw to create a 'as new' saw with what ever depth of plate the user required. I decided against it at the last minute as I thought it might put people off, thinking that this was the only solution for any secondhand saw. (I also don't need another hand saw....they collection seems to grow like weeds)

In the end I decided that a new plate for an old saw may be the topic for another thread at some point.

The saws performance from a feel / use perspective is not in my opinion affected by the pitting.

For anyone choosing a secondhand saw it is highly likely that the plate will have some pitting / rust. What is critical is that along the tooth line and for about a 1cm back from the tooth line (lots of steel for repeated sharpening) that the pitting is not very deep. If it's just below the surface it won't IMO affect the performance of the saw, if it's too deep say 1/4 way through the blade it could if it becomes a cutting edge / tooth top cause the tooth to wear mch faster than the other teeth and create a poor sawing performance. If many teeth are affected the saw won't stay sharp for as long as it should. Equally when sharpening a saw with pitting that deep the file will cut mire aggressively on a pit as there is less metal to remove.

For 99p light pitting which does not affect the saws performance can be tolerated, you can clean them off if you want. If it's very deeply pitted, walk on by unless it's a beautiful handle / brass back and you fancy buying some Spring steel and replacing the plate. There are lots of secondhand saws to be bought.

 

[Trafalgar]

Then a fantastic outcome on all fronts!

 

[ColeyS1]

Just read the entire thread ! Thanks for posting crystal clear instructions on how to renovate a saw. Looking forward to seeing how your 'how to' guide might affect the tenon saw I just bought.
Cheers

Coley

 

[nabs]

i was glad to see this excellent guide get a mention in another saw sharpening thread recently, since it inspired me to have a go at retoothing one of my backsaws.

I have tried this a couple of times before - with disapoinnting results - using two techniques that Paul Sellers describes. Both techniques involve using a junior hacksaw to create a notch to direct subsquent tooth shaping with a file.

My first attempt involved affixing a hacksaw blade (with suitable PPI) to the side of the saw as a guide - the results were disastorous, I just couldn't get the hand of it at all. I had better results creating a template out of a piece of scrap wood but it was fiddly. Destructions from Mr Sellers are here:
Cutting New Teeth - A Saw Toothing Retro For Worldwide Woodworkers - Paul Sellers' Blog

So I decided to have one last go, this time following Deema's guide, and (after a couple of attemps!) the result - although far from perfect - is not too bad.

I suspect I'd have more sucess with the other techiques now I've had a bit more practice, but I found it a lot easier to use a file directly to mark out the tooth spacing rather than using a junior hacksaw. Here are my top tips:

* I found that using double sided sticky tape to stick down the paper template meant the file gripped the tape during the initial stroke and this made it easier to start the file without it skipping sideways
* using a new and unused saw file helps (a lot!)
* if you are dodery old duffer like me then your eyes will not work properly - I can just about manage to do 12 PPI (and bigger) sharpening without aids, but for this one (14 PPI) I needed a mangifier (see pic). This helped a lot, but I found it was harder to keep the file level and perpendicular when you can't see your hands. This was fixed by stopping every now and then to lift he specs and blink blurily to see where my hands had ended up.
* I followed the advice in this guide and made sure I did exactly the same number of strokes on each tooth while doing the initial shaping, no matter how tempting it was to go "freestyle" and fix the odd wonky one. I don't know why this works , but it does.

The stage where it is easist to make mistakes is when doing the iniital strokes that mark out the spacing of the teeth - it seems obvious but it is very important to concentrate and make careful deliberate movements to place the file on the same spot on the template for each tooth. In my first attempt I found myself gettinng into a quick rhythm like I do when sharpening which, although fast, was disatorously inacurate. I think you can get away with going by a sense of rhythm when sharpening because the gullets provide a guide, but not so when retoothing.

Having not ruined the teeth, I also did some work on the handle, fixing the chipped horn (you may be able to spot my "invisible" join between old and new!) and reshaped the handle which had a rather uncomfortable bump under the palm originally. These two steps were dangerously close to actual woodworking, rather than tool fiddling, so I had to have a lie down afterwards.

I am not sure how good the result is, but it does seem to work (allowing for my limited abiity for sawing in a straight line), so cheers Deema!
Nick

 

[Bm101]

Excellent addition to an excellent thread. Cheers Nabs.

 

[custard]

Excellent thread, well done Deema!

=D>

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Some guides if anyone's interested

http://norsewoodsmith.com/files/file/sa ... plates.pdf

 

[nabs]

..having basically dismissed the "stick a hacksaw blade to the side of your saw to act as a template" technique in my previous post, I happened to notice that it is recomended in the universally admired The Essential Woodworker which just goes to show what little I know!

Mr Wearing also says "... ( when sawing tenon cheeks) the longer the saw stays in the sawcut the greater the risk of inaccuracy... An improvement is to have a tennon saw recut removving the crosscut teeth, generally about 15 tpi and replacing these by ripsaw teeth, 10 tpi... The greater speed of the ripsaw gives an improvement in accuracy"

what do people say to all that? Does it only apply to tennon cheeks?

 

[Jacob]

It applies to cutting along the grain - that's what a rip saw is for - tenon cheeks and elsewhere.
A cross cut saw can drift off line more easily when cutting along the grain. Probably because it doesn't push out the saw dust as well as the chisel action of a rip saw tooth.

 

[nabs]

I see - what about tooth size? The excerpt could also be read as "bigger teeth = fewer strokes = more accurate (ripsawing)" - is that generally true?

 

[Jacob]

I see - what about tooth size? The excerpt could also be read as "bigger teeth = fewer strokes = more accurate (ripsawing)" - is that generally true?

More to do with thickness of material - you need at least 3 (?) teeth in the cut or thereabouts. Then there's an upper limit where you wouldn't have the strength to cut with very big teeth - hence two handed saws etc.
Then the gullets have to be big enough to contain the sawdust generated otherwise they stop cutting - hence large saws with groups of teeth separated by large gullets. and so on!

 

[bugbear]

I see - what about tooth size? The excerpt could also be read as "bigger teeth = fewer strokes = more accurate (ripsawing)" - is that generally true?

Yes - but there are other parameters governing tooth size.

BugBear

 

[pedder]

the other idea is have as many edges in the cut as possible, because edges do the cutting. Just not so many edges that the gullets clogg.

 

[Mr.Mika]

Great instructions, thanks!

I did re-toothing too, to a S&J Leapfrog 10" open handled saw from 1920s.

3 times that is... first 2 attempts with a paper template, but I was too sloppy with placing the file, or it slipped. Uneven teeth. Actually the first try was ruined because of too large a file: the teeth got way too small, and also I think the 16 tpi I was aiming for was too fine anyway.

Then I came across the idea of using threaded rod as the template, and it worked really well. I got a piece of M12 rod, which is 1.75 mm pitch = 14.5 tpi (I may mix ppi and tpi here, but I don't think it matters either way), cut it to length and ground 1 side of it flat with a bench grinder, and maybe a little of the opposite side too to make it easier to clamp. Then I put it in a metal vise with the blade + piece of wood on the other side of blade, and then made a mark with a hacksaw following the thread. After that placing the file was very easy.

It worked really well, though at some points the result wasn't perfect, probably because the thread was so coarse that there was room for the hacksaw blade to move sideways. If I was to cut 12 tpi teeth, I'd take M6 rod & use every other thread.

The saw works great. I haven't bought a saw set yet, so the saw has no set, but it cuts very nicely even though maybe it could be a little lighter to push. I've cut a few dovetails with it, and I'm very pleased with the results. It feels more comfortable and more accurate than the disposable-blade Japanese pull saws I've used until now.

I really like the fact that I can now sharpen a saw like this, even if the teeth are in very bad shape. No more throwaway saws for me after the current ones are blunt.

 

[bridger]

......
These two steps were dangerously close to actual woodworking, rather than tool fiddling, so I had to have a lie down afterwards.
Nick
.....

Snork.

 

[technium]

To ensure that you file at the correct angle consistent a simple jig is required. A small piece of wood with a small hole drilled into it and marked with a line at 8 degrees is all that is required. Push the end of the file into the hole aligning one of the three faces if the file with the line.

I normall place a groove in the top of the jig so I know which way is up and also make an arrow pointing to the heel (handle).

View attachment 47635

The jig is a little dirty as I took the photos after I'd used it.

View attachment 47636

I've recommended a slim file, the reason is that each file has three useable sides, and a slim file is just big enough for 11 to 14 TPI that when filing the teeth you won't sink more than half the file into the gullet. This leaves the three other sides unused.

Hi deema

Can i just ask a question about your use of the jig?

I have started to follow your instructions to do a restore on a gents dovetail saw, Ive removed the handle and put the rusty blade in a vinegar bath and have managed to remove the rust although I left the steel back on which I forgot to do but will remove the back next and clean up that part of the blade.

I have used the 2nd cut file to remove all the teeth and make sure the blade is level ready for re-toothing (is that a word?) and I have printed off the template for a 14PPI which I think you mentioned would be good for a dovetail saw. I have yet to make your jig which seems simple enough but want to make sure im right on how you use it before I start the next process.

Do you rest the wood blank on your vice and have the top of the blade line up with the hole in the jig and then feed the file (at the correct angle) through the hole and onto the blade? Could you maybe take a pic of the way that part is done?

Great instructions mate, just this part I am unsure of.

Also as a side note, the blade after the vinegar (and bath of baking soda to neutralize) has turned a dull blue colour, is there a good way to get it silver and shiny again?

thanks again

Colin

 

[deema]

When making the file jig, I drill a hole and then use a protractor to draw the required angle on the jig adjacent to the hole. I then push the file into the hole lining up one side of the file with the line.

After the vinegar it's just a case of polishing the blade with autosol or similar. I've never tried to get it 'silver' shiny, just to be reflective to help with alignment when sawing.

Hope this helps