measuring into grooves

[spadge]

At the risk of adding more fuel to the fire I really cannot see the advantage of using a rod for a simple project such as a table. You only have to mark the length of the components once (ie rail length, leg length etc) and use a tee square to mark that distance on all the remaining similar pieces. So you only measure each piece once and transfer that measurement to the other similar pieces, therefore no room for error.

This is no different from (but quicker than) drawing a rod on which you would have to measure and mark the lengths of the various pieces once but then transfer that measurement to all associated pieces.

Clearly things will be different if you are batch producing something or making a more complicated piece. In these circumstances a rod may well be the way to go.

No one method is right in all circumstances. Just as you chose the most appropriate construction method for a piece you should chose the most appropriate method to layout the piece.

Cheers

Grahame

 

[Anonymous]

At the risk of adding more fuel to the fire I really cannot see the advantage of using a rod for a simple project such as a table. You only have to mark the length of the components once (ie rail length, leg length etc) and use a tee square to mark that distance on all the remaining similar pieces. So you only measure each piece once and transfer that measurement to the other similar pieces, therefore no room for error.

This is no different from (but quicker than) drawing a rod on which you would have to measure and mark the lengths of the various pieces once but then transfer that measurement to all associated pieces.

Clearly things will be different if you are batch producing something or making a more complicated piece. In these circumstances a rod may well be the way to go.

No one method is right in all circumstances. Just as you chose the most appropriate construction method for a piece you should chose the most appropriate method to layout the piece.

Cheers

Grahame

With a rod you'd also mark the mortices, tenons, haunches if any, drawer details, clearance gaps, in fact everything. In the process you work out and verify the design, and you have a separate complete reference should you need it.
In the end it's quicker, even for a simple one off. You have to mark all these things anyway - you are just doing them together at the beginning instead of during the process, and you see that they all work together instead of finding later that something doesn't fit.
I'd say its useful for just about everything you are likely to do in the way of normal woodwork where more than one measurement has to be made, other than merely cutting (not many pieces) to lengths, or not free form carving or turning perhaps, and other exceptions could be found I expect

cheers
Jacob

 

[Anonymous]

[You obviously never made model aircraft Tony. :roll:

cheers
Jacob

Actually, between the ages of 11 and 15, I made model aircraft with my dad :lol: Free flight for first two years, then radio controlled and for the last 6 months, indoor planes.

The best two we made were a Focker DR1 triplane (red baren) which flew dreadfully and a 1/6 scale spitfire mk5 which was a dream to fly.

My favourite of them all was a Pitts special biplane

 

[ByronBlack]

Jacob. If one is making a small project and creates a rod, how do you go about labelling your marks? I ask this because if the project is small and uses close fitting joints such as mortice and tenons the lines are so close that writing any labels will become difficult and sometimes obscure the lines. Is there a practical solution to this? Do you use abbreviations or some such short-hand?

Finally, what do you make your rods out of? Do you re-use them? Do you use both sides for the same project, or do you use multiple rods for various components?

 

[Anonymous]

Jacob. If one is making a small project and creates a rod, how do you go about labelling your marks? I ask this because if the project is small and uses close fitting joints such as mortice and tenons the lines are so close that writing any labels will become difficult and sometimes obscure the lines. Is there a practical solution to this? Do you use abbreviations or some such short-hand?

If you are not sure of the details on a rod you add in more until it is recognisable as a sectional drawing and everything becomes obvious. If it's something you know well then the marks are just the minimum necessary and another person might not be able to interpret them, or you might forget yourself if you are away from the job too long. But in general you get to recognise them like a bar code e.g. the end of a rail would have marks for shoulder, haunch, rebate, moulding, the end itself - all falling into a familiar sequence. This bar code also tells you which piece it is. So I can pick a piece at random from the 100 or so bits marked up and say immediately that it's a "top sash bottom rail" or whatever. So I don't identify them , they identify themselves.

Finally, what do you make your rods out of? Do you re-use them? Do you use both sides for the same project, or do you use multiple rods for various components?

B&Qs best MFC shelf lengths 6" wide. Used to think that I'd re-use them but it doesn't happen often. I've saved some of the most interesting ones.
One side only - the pencil marks would get scuffed on the other side. One rod for the whole thing e.g. a door plus frame would have the full horizontal section on one edge of the board, and ditto vertical on the other (same side). The horizontal marks would go on roughly in this order; masonry width, clearance, door frame width, rebate, clearance, door stile, slot for panel & haunch on tenon (these usually coincide), panel clearance, muntin, panel slot in muntin etc etc. Similar for the vertical.
Most definitely not to use multiple rods for components as the whole point is to make everthing fit, so e.g you draw a drawer rod in situ in the table apron part of the rod etc. Then you make the components in any order and you know they will fit.
As you draw it up it does all those little back of envelope calculations for you, which eliminates the most common mistakes. It's a sort of magical calculator which doesn't need batteries!
Also - you can take measurements off direct to the workpiece, or transfer indirectly to a lath, or by measuring with a tape. You could put measurements on direct from the workpiece e.g. you could lay on the bit of PAR you are going to use and mark the width with a pencil. Or you could tranfer them on from a lath, pinch rods, tape etc
You can check the measurements of a component e.g. a panel, by just laying it on and seeing if it lines up with the marks.
As I said - its a really powerful device.
cheers
Jacob

 

[Anonymous]

[B&Qs best MFC shelf lengths 6" wide. Used to think that I'd re-use them but it doesn't happen often. .Jacob

So, you keep buying pieces of material to make rods?? Business must be good if you can buy material to throw away

I only had to buy my ruler once and it probably cost less than one piece of MFC


The thing that bothers me about this 'discussion' Jacob, is that you think the way you choose to do things is right and everyone else is wrong.

Clearly this is absolute rubbish and each person does things the way they want to and the way they like - that is why we do any hobby to get enjoyment.

You will never convince everyone that drawing marks on a scrap of wood is better than measurement, especially for small projects, as there are really no benefits at all over careful measurement, possibly unless one is making batches (which hobbiests tend not to do).

Why not just use your rod and accept that others choose not too?

 

[Sawdust]

Tony,

Why do you take such exception to what Jacob said. It strikes me that he knows what he's talking about and has some good ideas which as happy to share.

Surely that is the purpose if the forum.

Mike

 

[JFC]

Now now Tony , your getting flustered :lol:
I don't use a rod as such , i don't buy timber to throw away . Maybe it was because my teacher was a tight wad but we used to use ( and i still do ) the fist peice marked out as a pattern . If i'm making a table i will mark out one leg and mark the rest from that "pattern" I spose it is a rod in a way but one that gets used in the end .

 

[Anonymous]

Tony,

Why do you take such exception to what Jacob said. It strikes me that he knows what he's talking about and has some good ideas which as happy to share.

Surely that is the purpose if the forum.

Mike

Yes what's the matter Tony?
You are free to ignore anything I say and do things how you like; I'm not saying you are wrong, I couldn't care less!
Remember you are a moderator you are not supposed to generate ill feeling and bad tempers.
Or is it just the way you say it? :roll:
No I don't throw the rods away - I rub them out and re-use them. Some of them are 20 years old probably.

cheers
Jacob
PS Just realised it's the way I said it - I meant I don't re-use the rod itself, to make a replica of the item, but I do re-use the boards.
Still no excuse for the irritability :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

I was just answering Byron's questions. That's why I seem to be repeating myself - people keep asking me to.
Or is Byron an agent provocateur - deliberately inducing me to bore people beyond endurance!
If you don't like it don't read it.
cheers
Jacob

 

[wizer]

Not sure if I understand. Can you go through how to use a story stick again pls Jacob....







Kidding :lol:

 

[engineer one]

look i did not want to start world war 3 with this supposedly simple question.

jacob your comments are sensible and cogent, but just because you repeat it, and do not consider the original question properly does not make you right for all the circumstances.

tony has asked a couple of times for you to answer the actual question i asked and you have kind of gone off topic.

in a perfect world and with the proper training or learnt skills then a rod is the way to go, there is no doubt.

HOWEVER.

if you have not been trained to use it, and you cannot visualise it properly, and you do not use them day in day out, then there is even a possibility for rods to be inefficient and inaccurate, since it is possible to misunderstand your laying out there. you jacob mya deny this, but that is because of your skills and knowledge, and does not take into account the learning curve that an amateur needs to go through.

take my coffee table(please :lol: :roll: ) the design has been rolling around in my head for a longish while, so the first step was cutting and shaping the basic wood. after which i had to modify the design because some of the wood did not work properly. then i made the various components using a kind of rod, ie stops on the saw etc to layout the lengths and dimentsions. but once you start some of the detail work, in my case, for instance cutting the grooves no matter how careful you are there are potential errors within this.

therefore it makes sense to me to have an additional measuring system for the final fit up, since it allows for the mistakes that you inevitably as an amateur make during the cutting out and machining process.

so lets get back to the basics.
in a perfect world we would all comfortably make rods, and perfect furniture, but sadly neither we nor the work are perfect, and we need the cheats device.

that was all i asked for. so lets go back to neutral corners, and think about the question, not our own preconceptions.

paul :wink:

 

[wizer]

Guys this is getting silly. There is far too much bickering on this forum lately. I have had a PM suggesting that Jacob was banned. If this is true it is totally out of order. I see a lot of over moderation on this forum.

 

[Anonymous]

Any more questions anybody? :lol: :lol:

cheers
Jacob

 

[PowerTool]

Yes - what's it like beig a TV star ? :wink:

Saw you on Tommy Walsh's "room for improvement" last week (sash windows in Bonsall - just incase you've been on a few times,and I haven't seen them yet... :lol: )

Andrew

 

[spadge]

Any more questions anybody? :lol: :lol:

cheers
Jacob

If my grandmothers auntie met up with my sisters brothers cousins son and decided she wanted me to make my nephews sons friend a coffee table.
Would you recommend I used a rod :wink:

 

[engineer one]

i have heard of sparing the rod and saving the child, but this is getting silly.

let us go back into history.

:?

it is likely that the rod was invented even before the egyptians, but lets take that as a starting point. depending upon which form of history you believe in, the pyramids were built by slaves. thus you had a language problem, and also a different system of measurements in all these countries. so rods or an equivalent, were certainly used as a kind of shorthand and as a means of ensuring that guys with different language and understandings mass produced the same things.

later, rood/rod or perches were used to build churches and even later cathedrals to a specific standard and with some interchangeable parts.
later during the early industrial revolution, machinery was generally made on site because there was no mass production, and thus layout lines on the floor became universal. once proper lathes and other accurate machines were made, then more parts were made off site and assembled, so people used drawings. however i know from personal investigation at Doncaster loco works, that until about 1911, almost every loco off the line had a different set of dimensions even though measuring sticks were used. this was until such things as flame cutters and mass production methods became more readily available. and more worryingly, the drawing were often produced after manufacture which is why often the dimensions are a little stupid in the real world. during the first war, more effective measuring methods became available, and more people could read write and add up, plus, because of people like henry ford, more specific parts were made, it became more practical to introduce measurements than rods.

thus we get up to date, where rods are generally used for fitted items, be they doors, windows, or bookshelves, whilst in my view, smaller, mobile furniture tends to be built less so, except in mass production workshops.

for the individual i would suggest that a combination of both is necessary.

anyway , having pulled the pin on this grenade, i am off back into the bunker :lol:

and finally no banning and no more repeats please :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Alf]

I have had a PM suggesting that Jacob was banned. If this is true it is totally out of order.

That'd be the one from Jacob suggesting the Yahoo group instead...? I thought that was a little out of order, yes. And that's speaking as someone who voluntarily shared Jacob's one month ban in mild protest. But let us make like a Boojum and let it softly and silently vanish away.

I think certain people are over-reacting and essentially playing into Jacob's mischievous hands. Like a wayward parrot, a firm voice and not getting into a total hissy fit every time he does a Bad Thing is probably advisable. Not so easy if the parrot's hanging onto your ear-lobe, but luckily Jacob seems minus beak... And after all he does occasionally say useful things and may even have beautiful plummage in the right light :lol:

Cheers, Alf

Who'd be grateful if Jacob could refrain from getting banned until after I'd tried doing a rod for these doors 'cos I may need advice...

 

[ByronBlack]

Jacob - please don't misinterpret my genuine questions with trouble making, it was nothing of the sort, I appreciate the effort you made to answer my questions.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Who'd be grateful if Jacob could refrain from getting banned until after I'd tried doing a rod for these doors 'cos I may need advice...

Me too - I'm quite interested in rods and have used them for a few jobs

Cheers :wink:

Paul