marking gauge, should the blade turn?

[D_W]

Derek has told me before how complicated the things are that he's built. Derek builds complicated, I build simple. Just ask him, he'll tell you.

I've just had enough of the artificial friendliness followed by assertions about what someone can or can't post or what's relevant or not. Trust me, if you don't do what he thinks you should, he'll lobby forum moderators without hesitation.

 

[Inspector]

D_W I've had enough of your slams at people that don't fit your notion of what or how to do work. You decry members constantly, while deriding what they do and have disdain for the way they learned their woodwork. It is behaviour that is divisive and the forum doesn't need it! Lots of "D" words because you disgust me. After I post this reply you will be joining the very very short list of people I've put on Ignore.

Pete

 

[Adam W.]

Interesting thread this one.

 

[Jacob]

........

I'm starting to sound like Jacob, but folks do have a tendency to make the simple complex at times.....

Cheers,
Ian

With marking gauges I confess to making the simple complex - I've got a dozen or more!
All old woodies, some two pins for mortices, some with knife blades.
I bought one new, the rest about £2 each on average.
They all work perfectly and it's really useful to have several on the job from start to finish in case of omissions and revisions, rather than having to keep resetting one and sometimes getting it wrong.
I've had a go with one of those nasty expensive little metal jobs but really couldn't see the point (no pun intended!) and anyway I need several and at £20 plus they are not worth having.
PS come to think - one of my cutting gauges has a very thin blade and you can hardly see the line. Better with a thicker blade and a good 30º bevel perhaps, or set it aside for super precise marks in fine hardwood.

 

[pgrbff]

A wheel is simply a continuous blade. Rotate to a fresh edge.

Wheels in wheel gauges are not meant to turn. If they did turn, they would not cut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I dont understand why you think it wouldn't cut if it turns? It's a circle, 360 degree sharp. It may cut differently to a stationary wheel, but it will cut.
Does a pizza cutter not turn? Does it cut?

 

[Lons]

With marking gauges I confess to making the simple complex - I've got a dozen or more!
All old woodies, some two pins for mortices, some with knife blades.
I bought one new, the rest about £2 each on average.
They all work perfectly and it's really useful to have several on the job from start to finish in case of omissions and revisions, rather than having to keep resetting one and sometimes getting it wrong.
I've had a go with one of those nasty expensive little metal jobs but really couldn't see the point (no pun intended!) and anyway I need several and at £20 plus they are not worth having.
PS come to think - one of my cutting gauges has a very thin blade and you can hardly see the line. Better with a thicker blade and a good 30º bevel perhaps, or set it aside for super precise marks in fine hardwood.

Is that a rounded 30 deg bevel Jacob and the best way to sharpen it? Only pulling your chain so not a sharpening argument needed.

I'm the same as you, have several marking and cutting gauges all sourced years ago from boot sales and they work well however I did make a wheeled brass / steel one last year which also has it's place. Just an experiment as I'm too tight to buy a Veritas version.

 

[SadGeek]

Unless the wheel has bearings it is not meant to turn and any turning that it does do can add wobble and therefore make the line deviate.
My pizza cutter wobbles all over the place.
(Just noticed that this is my first message ! - Since joining in May - never thought of myself as a lurker before.)

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but I've always assumed the marking gauges with a sharpened disc on the end were meant to cut the line as the disc rolled. Now it seems that some users reckon the disc is meant to stay stationary, locked into place with the screw at the end. I've only used a few of this type of gauge, and mostly they were owned by learners I've taught, and in every case the disc rolled. Maybe I missed a trick and should have tightened the screw at the end. I've no idea if that's right or wrong. Anyway, I must admit I've not found using that type of gauge suits me, and only really found they're marginally useful for cross-grain marking, such as might be employed to mark the shoulder lines for dovetail joints. They're usefulness, I found, for marking with the grain was virtually non-existent.

I think I'll stick with my pin type marking and mortice gauges and knife blade type cutting gauges. They're generally cheap, cheerful and work well, and I really like how easy it is to gauge a deeply incised cross-grain mark with my cutting gauges into which I can drop the pointy end of a chisel to finish off clearing waste between pins and tails of dovetails. Slainte.

 

[SadGeek]

Matt Estlea seems to know what he is talking about.

 

[Jacob]

Matt Estlea seems to know what he is talking about.

Mistitled though. He doesn't show how to use a marking gauge "correctly" he just shows how he personally uses one and takes about 12 minutes too long in the process. He gets basics wrong - somehow nobody has ever showed him why a marking gauge should be pushed rather than pulled.

 

[D_W]

D_W I've had enough of your slams at people that don't fit your notion of what or how to do work. You decry members constantly, while deriding they do and have disdain for the way they learned their woodwork. It is behaviour that is divisive and the forum doesn't need it! Lots of "D" words because you disgust me. After I post this reply you will be joining the very very short list of people I've put on Ignore.

Pete

That's off the mark. The situation is a little more complicated than that, but you're free to do as you'd like. I'm not here to lobby people and build adulation.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Derek has told me before how complicated the things are that he's built. Derek builds complicated, I build simple. Just ask him, he'll tell you.

I've just had enough of the artificial friendliness followed by assertions about what someone can or can't post or what's relevant or not. Trust me, if you don't do what he thinks you should, he'll lobby forum moderators without hesitation.

I build "complicated". You eensult me! A duel at dawn. Choose your weapon!!

I dont understand why you think it wouldn't cut if it turns? It's a circle, 360 degree sharp. It may cut differently to a stationary wheel, but it will cut.
Does a pizza cutter not turn? Does it cut?

Lie-Nielsen ....

"Tite-Mark Marking Gauges

Unique micrometer adjustment makes this marking gauge the handiest and most accurate available. Steel shaft, Brass body, fixed circular A2 blade".

The Veritas versions are the same.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but I've always assumed the marking gauges with a sharpened disc on the end were meant to cut the line as the disc rolled. Now it seems that some users reckon the disc is meant to stay stationary, locked into place with the screw at the end. I've only used a few of this type of gauge, and mostly they were owned by learners I've taught, and in every case the disc rolled. Maybe I missed a trick and should have tightened the screw at the end. I've no idea if that's right or wrong. Anyway, I must admit I've not found using that type of gauge suits me, and only really found they're marginally useful for cross-grain marking, such as might be employed to mark the shoulder lines for dovetail joints. They're usefulness, I found, for marking with the grain was virtually non-existent.

I think I'll stick with my pin type marking and mortice gauges and knife blade type cutting gauges. They're generally cheap, cheerful and work well, and I really like how easy it is to gauge a deeply incised cross-grain mark with my cutting gauges into which I can drop the pointy end of a chisel to finish off clearing waste between pins and tails of dovetails. Slainte.

Thank you, Richard. Your comments and experience match mine - including the with-the-grain.

Both of my modern gauges with sharp discs (flat on the end) lock up tight and do not turn, but it would be nice if they did. PGR's comment about a pizza wheel is on the mark with this, too. If a pizza cutter encounter something that it doesn't cut to full depth, it continues to roll, but it does not hang up or snag the pizza. Another pass, and everything is done.

I see that a tool dealer in the US labeled the stanley 97 and 98 gauges as "pizza wheel" types, which is apt as they are double bevel and not knife sharp all the way around. And they work well. Agree on the knife gauge, too - if the line is to be knifed by a fixed wheel, the knife does a better job and its orientation in a gauge can be manipulated.

Judging by the lack of response to my separate thread about anyone using this type of gauge, especially a stanley 97 and 98, this little treat of function (pizza type rather than tearing through fibers) appears to be lost. It's a shame they are expensive now as they weren't 10-15 years ago (or maybe my mind is clouded because you could find them on the ground at flea markets here).

I'm not sure who built a gauge first - titemark or veritas, but they seem to be copying each other when it may have been better to copy stanley instead (though it would've been more complicated). There's no company group giving away vintage stanley tools, though, so the chance of starting with the "pro stuff" first and copying later stuff only if nothing else exists ...not going to happen in the current environment.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... somehow nobody has ever showed him why a marking gauge should be pushed rather than pulled.

Interesting comment. I know of workers that prefer to pull marking gauges towards them. I mostly prefer to push the gauge and hold at the start so that the stem is at a slight angle to the wood and the pin(s) sort of rotate into contact with the wood and then drags the mark. Having said that there are occasions where I find dragging towards me works best. I can't see that pulling or pushing a marking gauge is either right or wrong. I'm aware that Joyce, for instance, talks of individual workers finding their own preference for using the tool (pp 32- 33), and where I did my training the craftsmen were pretty relaxed about gauge use direction, i.e., push or pull.

I'm curious to know your reasoning for pushing being 'right', and pulling being 'wrong'. Slainte.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

... Anyway, I must admit I've not found using that type of gauge suits me, and only really found they're marginally useful for cross-grain marking, such as might be employed to mark the shoulder lines for dovetail joints. They're usefulness, I found, for marking with the grain was virtually non-existent.

I think I'll stick with my pin type marking and mortice gauges and knife blade type cutting gauges. They're generally cheap, cheerful and work well, and I really like how easy it is to gauge a deeply incised cross-grain mark with my cutting gauges into which I can drop the pointy end of a chisel to finish off clearing waste between pins and tails of dovetails. Slainte.

Richard, I find value in using a wheel gauge across the grain. A knife gauge does this well too, but will leave a wide imprint. It is possible to score a light, shallow line with the wheels, which may be preferred if you do not wish to leave marks on drawer sides or cases. I do this, and then deepen the lines inside the sockets.

End grain is best with either a pin or a (Japanese) knife gauge. That is why I have these types as well. The wheel gauges are useless here. The double wheel gauges are doubly poor (as they leave an even lighter line, one impossible to see) if the wheels are used simultaneously. They need to be used individually.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I dont understand why you think it wouldn't cut if it turns? It's a circle, 360 degree sharp. It may cut differently to a stationary wheel, but it will cut.
Does a pizza cutter not turn? Does it cut?

It is an interesting question.

This is just my theory: a pizza is thick and doughy. One can drag a knife across it - indeed, there are "rocker" knives available which are preferred ... as a rocking action is needed to aid in the release of the pizza "dough". A knife would tear and not just cut. So, a pizza cutter is better for being round as it can slice and release simultaneously.

But ... a pizza wheel is not rigid (just checked mine). It has a little side movement ... ala a little wobble ... and this is not a good thing for dovetail lines or tenon shoulders - unless you like "interesting".

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Sgian Dubh]

A knife gauge does this well too, but will leave a wide imprint. It is possible to score a light, shallow line with the wheels, which may be preferred if you do not wish to leave marks on drawer sides or cases. I do this, and then deepen the lines inside the sockets.
Derek

Derek, I must admit I'm more than happy to leave a deep score on the tails and on the pins of most dovetail joints. It's just the way I was taught, I guess, and I've stuck with it. The emphasis was on speed so we didn't spend time deepening lines between tails and pins as it was more just a case of, "mark the line ya eejit, and chop it out, ideally yesterday", ha ha. Having said that, where the dovetails are always exposed, say a chest or something similar, I'm more likely to mark lightly and take the knife marks out after assembly.

A good point about disc gauges being not very effective on end grain. Slainte.

 

[D_W]

It is an interesting question.

This is just my theory: a pizza is thick and doughy. One can drag a knife across it - indeed, there are "rocker" knives available which are preferred ... as a rocking action is needed to aid in the release of the pizza "dough". A knife would tear and not just cut. So, a pizza cutter is better for being round as it can slice and release simultaneously.

But ... a pizza wheel is not rigid (just checked mine). It has a little side movement ... ala a little wobble ... and this is not a good thing for dovetail lines or tenon shoulders - unless you like "interesting".

Regards from Perth

Derek

Stanley's gauges have no wobble - the comparison is simple, the wheel turns. Introducing the idea that gauges would have to do what a pizza wheel does other than turning doesn't help following how *actual* gauges that were missed by boutique companies worked. The play in the stanley wheel gauges is a small fraction of a thousandth of an inch and doesn't affect the line.

The fact that it will roll over what it doesn't cut easily and continue to roll is far more handy, just like a pizza wheel. If it needs to cut deeper, more pressure is all that's needed.

 

[gcusick]

The instructions for the Veritas wheel marking gauge (here: http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductInfo/EN/05N35.10EN.pdf). say that the cutter is non-rotating.

 

[Jacob]

.......

I'm curious to know your reasoning for pushing being 'right', and pulling being 'wrong'. Slainte.

Well of course it doesn't matter either way if the job gets done but I was taught to mark, e.g. a 3' board, by starting say 9" from the further end and pushing to the end, then to bring it back 18" and join up with the first pass, twice more to make 4 x 9" marks each pushed forwards to join the previous one. The actual measurements not specific; just according to how it felt.
The logic is that the short pass pushed in and along the board is tighter than the same pulled, that pushing is easier to deepen if required, and that short passes correct the tendency of a longer pass to catch the grain and drift off.
Sounds unduly fussy but it becomes second nature and is logical.
PS and the pin trailed, as you describe and can be made as deep/shallow as required, whether a pin or a knife point, which of course is not possible with a wheel cutter.