making tables

[sunnybob]

Terry, my main complaint is with the tables. That lip is too big (once you have a lip to stop stuff sliding off, the only next logical height is to stop stuff tipping over, and by the time the table is tilted far enough to stop stuff tipping over, the tray is way beyond the point of no return. I will suggest he has only an inch lip, which will have the result of lowering the overall height of the tables when stacked. And I REALLY dont like the colours. But if I make it, its going into his house not mine, so I dont care about that.

I'm complete moron when it comes to computer design programmes, so I am hoping if I'm extremely nice to bugbear he might take pity on a struggling fellow woodworker and help an old guy out.

 

[Jacob]

....
I'm complete moron when it comes to computer design programmes, s...

I know that woodworkers have a bit of an aversion to pencils so I tread carefully - but I have to say that for that simple design doing a drawing the old fashioned way should be really easy.
If you look at BBs corrected photo that's what you'd aim for - all 3 full size on a piece of ply but including the full length of the legs. You've got the measurements and you can guess the angles and check with a bit of trial and error (pencil AND rubber!). The tips of the legs and the corners of the top all fit exactly to the corners of the rectangle, so that makes things even easier!
Having got the 3 on a board separated by only a pencil-line thickness, you then cut out one of these to make a template.
Then draw round the template on to the actual workpiece, and draw the next one far enough away so that the gap is suitable for whatever cutting process you will use, and for finishing.
Old fashioned pencil drawing is an essential skill and part and parcel of the process of making wooden things by hand. Not producing nice drawings for people to look at (though that's another possibility) but just getting lines in the right place - first as part of the design process and second so you can see where to cut things out.
Pencil is a powerful and essential tool.

 

[MrTeroo]

By the way, wheres custard? havent seen him post for a while.

I've been wondering the same. Hope he's ok?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Probably decided he needs to spend some time working ...

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Jacob has the right idea, make one template, draw around on the sheet material of choice, cut around with a jigsaw slightly oversize, and use a router to flush trim to the template. Repeat 5 more times. Spend time getting the template spot on and the actual making of the legs can be done in a couple of hours.

But definitely DON'T reduce the height of the tray walls. They might seem over engineered for preventing items sliding off the tray, but they also have the purpose of visually balancing the design. You will completely bugger the whole design if you make the walls lower. A very simple design like this is dependant on all the elements working together and since there are so few, modifying one will ruin it.

Mike.

PS the intellectual design thing wasn't 100% serious, though we should think about other people's design cooywrite more than we do. The laws have recently been toughened up, too.

 

[Jacob]

Pencil versus CAD always reminds me of the story where NASA is supposed to have spent millions on developing a space biro which would work in zero gravity but Russian astronauts just used a pencil.
Very useful things - you can work out difficult calculations with them. If constipated you can work it out with a pencil (I'm told) - hows that for versatility!

 

[MatthewRedStars]

Not adding much new, but as someone who works in batch furniture production....

There is no need to analyse the photo. The tables are identical. Making any other decision at the design stage would be insane and increase costs and hassle. There is zero reason to make them different, and a dozen reasons to make them identical. QED etc etc

 

[sunnybob]

good point on the table lip. after all its what he has seen and wants, so changing that could turn him off altogether.

Intellectual rights I do agree on normally, but for the reasons i stated above, I'm not too upset about this one. It would cost 20 what it was worth tracking the owner down than to pay any royalty that MAY be due.

I have a makita jigsaw, but its one of those that the blade bends are 4 inches of cutting even if its in a straight line so cutting these shapes free hand could be very "interesting".
The mafell jig saw is very high on my wish list.

 

[doctor Bob]

I have a makita jigsaw, but its one of those that the blade bends are 4 inches of cutting even if its in a straight line so cutting these shapes free hand could be very "interesting".
The mafell jig saw is very high on my wish list.

Do you have more tools than this? To do it properly will require some skills and decent tools.

The legs need to be out of ply, lipped all round with solid and veneered over, can't use MDF as it will be to fragile. I read earlier on that he was quibbling about 100 euros, friend or not I'd be telling him that I have better things to do with my time.

 

[woodbrains]

I have a makita jigsaw, but its one of those that the blade bends are 4 inches of cutting even if its in a straight line so cutting these shapes free hand could be very "interesting".
The mafell jig saw is very high on my wish list.

Do you have more tools than this? To do it properly will require some skills and decent tools.

The legs need to be out of ply, lipped all round with solid and veneered over, can't use MDF as it will be to fragile. I read earlier on that he was quibbling about 100 euros, friend or not I'd be telling him that I have better things to do with my time.

Hello,

I would totally agree with this. Those tables are designed for CNC production and whilst they could be done as a one off set, they would require a decent set of tools to do them. They look simple, and to a degree they are, but in that simplicity for a CNC there are complexities for a human with a jigsaw and router. They WILL need a master template, one off set of not, because you are batch producing the legs. The template MUST be super accurate, which is a difficult job with rudimentary tools. Not impossible, but necessary to take ultimate care for accuracy. If the template is only very slightly out, either the tables will not nest, will nest but have too big a gap between (sloppy) or look like a dog's dinner if those radii don't all nest nicely. How are you going to make a template with 4 identical radii. The charm of these tables is the super accurate fit of the nest.

I would be surprised if they could be done for €100 at cost to be honest. If you have no love for them, why would you do the job? Perhaps for the challenge of a new technique, that is a good reason, but be prepared to splash out on some kit and write off the cost as your education. A nice new template follower for you router is going to cost a fair proportion of the €100.

Mike.

 

[sunnybob]

Dr Bob....
No you read wrong, 100 was "no bother". I suspect I would have to go to 200 to make him think again.

i have more tools, but was not going to use ply for the legs, just the tables. That would need 18 mm ply and it would look awful. I was thinking of walnut for the legs, which would save any veneering problems. I would then be able to make the legs seperate from the cross pieces, and the joints would make the whole thing much stronger.

Mike, I have a good selection of power tools, and none of this actually scares me apart from the leg to cross piece joint. but I do this hobby to keep my brain active, and I like problem solving.

Luckily, I dont need to make a profit, although a small one would be nice. I could make the trays from a sheet of 9 mm ply (30 euro) with spare left over for other projects, and the legs from a plank (maybe a bit more) of walnut for another 25 euros. so as long as I have a template I could make these for less than a 100, even if barely. i feel I could push to a 150, which would leave a few euro over for my new tool fund.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I'm not trying to put you off, just offering some advice on the reality of making these. When anyone tries to make reproductions of a machine made thing they often run into problems of wrongly perceived simplicity.

By the way, if you were to make the legs from 18 mm ply, they would not look awful at all. They may not be to your taste, or mine for that matter, but modernist furniture like this actually look great in ply. Even with the cores showing.

If you make from solid, it would still mean a template, which is the most difficult bit. However, you would lose some difficulties and create others. You will have to find a way of eliminating the short grain problem on the inside, where the rail meets the legs at a radius. Something like a gunstock joint will do it. Do you think that is in your skill set? Otherwise lose the radii completely and simplify the thing further. You will likely do away with the need for a template if you did that.

Mike.

 

[sunnybob]

My (early stage) thinking is to make the legs half lap the cross piece and glue and dowel. From the side view the leg would be behind the cross piece. Then once dried, round off the top edge. Minimalist is good.

As said, my jigsaw is not fit for this purpose. I have a good bandsaw and an even better router table

 

[woodbrains]

My (early stage) thinking is to make the legs half lap the cross piece and glue and dowel. From the side view the leg would be behind the cross piece. Then once dried, round off the top edge. Minimalist is good.

As said, my jigsaw is not fit for this purpose. I have a good bandsaw and an even better router table

Hello,

What about rounding the inside of the joint, so it will mate with the top? The inside is where you'll get a short grain breakage problem. It is your call as to whether the large amount of end grain showing on the half lap will look good. My opinion would be not.

Mike.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

As others have said, how you draw the profile is immaterial. Pencil and paper, AutoCAD, whatever, but just for fun I quickly knocked out a sample drawing in AutoCAD. The key is getting the arcs at the top and bottom of the horizontal 'rail' to match when the A frames stack. It's easy enough to do in AutoCAD by copying and moving vertically a drawing of the inside profile of a single leg including the lower arc until the centre point of this arc matches the centre point of the requisite upper arc. The distance between these arcs determines the width of the top rail. After that it's a case of filling in the blanks, e.g., the width of the top rail and outside profile of the leg, then mirroring this developed leg profile and moving it to the other end of the rail. Just to demonstrate the stackability of the generated profile I copied and moved into place three samples of my drawing.

In the old days I did this kind of thing only on paper with drafting tools, but CAD programmes are fun too, and in many ways require similar skills (e.g., knowing how to set out a drawing in either first angle or third angle projection - you'd perhaps be surprised at the number of CAD drawings presented in a mix of third and first angle projection, or with no appreciable logic in their arrangement on a monitor or printed form!) Things I find a boon with CAD programmes is the ability to do things like mirror, copy and move a drawn object which can save a lot of redrawing, the ability to create libraries of drawings that can be called upon later, adding dimensions to drawings and so on. Anyway, her it is, and no doubt the original was also drawn on a CAD programme with plywood or similar cut on a CNC machine with perhaps an allowance for attaching a lipping on all show edges, but it's also doable (but relatively slow I suppose) with a hand made template and a hand held router if care is taken making a really good template. Slainte.

 

[DoctorWibble]

I also quite like them. Certainly better than the hideous things Jacob suggests

Anyway they are clearly designed to be made from sheet materials. Likely two columns of legs from one standard board. If its made from solid it will end up looking very different and IMO would need a fresh design to avoid disappointment.

From your perspective sticking to the original design and sticking to sheet is likely to be the easiest route especially if you avoid any lipping or veneering. Best and I suspect only option is to make it from a good quality 13 ply board with a buffed but exposed edge. Last time I bought ply good enough to be used like this this it was £70 per board plus delivery. If the client doesn't like birch you could use a veneered board with a good quality 13 ply substrate. So long as you choose one that would match the exposed edges that could look very fine I think. But the cost of a single board will be far over your £100.
You could also save cost by suggesting the client sorts out the finishing. Three different colours plus a clear finish on a single piece is a real headache. So of course that would cost him rather a lot unless he did it himself.

I think you need to talk this through properly with your friend. Unavoidable cost dilemmas are for the ultimate owner to resolve not for the maker to magically make disappear. Any hidden subsidy on your part in time or materials will be almost certainly completely unnoticed and unappreciated by your friend. Which is the kind of thing that can rankle for a long time. Your friendship will be safer if you fess up and tell him the project is much more expensive than you first supposed.

 

[DoctorWibble]

Key to making the thing as Woodbrains points out above is matching the inside and outside radius. That is not at all an easy thing. Any mistakes will be very obvious and will spoil the effect. Solving that problem is more important than exactly matching the original shape and its quite possible you may not have the tools or machinery to do it. However you get around that you'd need to test the template on something cheaper than your build materials which of course is yet another unavoidable cost.

 

[sunnybob]

sgian... Is that drawing available for me to copy and expand? It would certainly save me many hours marking out.
I have tried autocad, sketchup, and lots of other software, but I am unable to work with them. I CAN use pencil and paper, but if I can save a few hours, then I'm up for that.

BUT, I do not have the tools to cut consecutive pieces. I would need a 6 mm gap between each leg to allow for wandering cuts, then I can smooth them out once cut by working on one and then routing the rest flush.

12 mm ply is not too expensive here, good quality for 40 euro for an 8 x 4 sheet, and my local woodyard will cut that down so I can transport the bits i my car, but I'm not convinced 12 is strong enough for the legs.

So I think i would be happier with 18 mm for the sides, and 9 for the trays.

Bearing in mind I'm not even looking for a profit as such, just the challenge of doing it, and I could keep all the leftover ply for future use, with him painting, I'm now leaning towards 130 euros, but I need to price 18 mm ply first.

 

[Jacob]

Key to making the thing as Woodbrains points out above is matching the inside and outside radius. That is not at all an easy thing.

Extremely easy if you draw it up (with a pencil) as a stack as I suggested above. (Or as per Richard's left drawing of a stack). One compass (or freehand) drawn line does both the inside and the outside of the curve - they can't fail to fit, just like a jigsaw, even if wiggly and erratic. You can then fair them in to suit, freehand, or with bendy curve rulers, french curves, compasses, etc etc. Difficult to get wrong, but not impossible of course!
You then make up a template and have every opportunity to refine this by further trimming if you really want to.
A basic hands-on craft process is "offering up" where you put one component against another (in this case a duplicate, or the outline drawn out) - see how they fit and adjust accordingly.
Making mountains out of molehills! - I sometimes think that should be the UK woodwork motto!

 

[Jacob]

As others have said, how you draw the profile is immaterial. Pencil and paper, AutoCAD, ..

Except:
1 pencils and paper are universal, very cheap and everybody knows how to use them (or can after an hour or so).
2 Autocad is not available to all, requires a computer and the programme (£1000 and upwards) requires a fairly long learning curve and the end can't actually put your design onto the workpiece without resorting to guess what - a pencil!
A really serious case of overkill for such a simple design. With the given dimensions should take 20 minutes or so to get on to a piece of board or paper.