Low VS standard angle planes

[Duncumb.fc]

Please also note that a knot, or any other imperfection that might slow the plane, will impart a given return force. This force will slow a plane with more momentum by a lesser amount than a plane with less momentum, true. However, the force required to accelerate the plane back to full speed will be equal to the force imparted by the imperfection in the first place.
Thus, weight and momentum, while making a plane seem smoother in a push, actually do not save any energy at all.

Fraser

 

[Dangermouse]

According to quantum mechanics, the plane can be in two places at once depending on how it is observed and if near a singularity can weight nothing and 5000 tons at the same time.

 

[Duncumb.fc]

According to quantum mechanics, the plane can be in two places at once depending on how it is observed and if near a singularity can weight nothing and 5000 tons at the same time.

Ah of course! That explains everything! :mrgreen:

 

[G S Haydon]

According to quantum mechanics, the plane can be in two places at once depending on how it is observed and if near a singularity can weight nothing and 5000 tons at the same time.

At last, some common sense =D>

 

[woodbrains]

Please also note that a knot, or any other imperfection that might slow the plane, will impart a given return force. This force will slow a plane with more momentum by a lesser amount than a plane with less momentum, true. However, the force required to accelerate the plane back to full speed will be equal to the force imparted by the imperfection in the first place.
Thus, weight and momentum, while making a plane seem smoother in a push, actually do not save any energy at all.

Fraser

Hello,

Like I said earlier, if your preference is for a wooden plane or a lighter plane then fine, I'm not trying to change people's opinions on that. But the original argument was that a heavy plane has no advantage in the respect to being able to sail through ornery stuff, which is not true Nd the point I was trying to explain. I'm afraid your logic above s wrong. Do not try to justify a preference with poor logic, just state your preference and stand by it. The reason these forums run away is that poor logic is used over and over to try to win a point. It is not necessar I love wooden planes and I know sharp irons are most desirable thing and work wonders. But don't use bad logic to prove a point, it just becomes exasperating trying to explain over and over what is often irrefutable.

For anyone still interested, the above situation is not right because the opposing force exerted by the knot, or whatever, is the same for whichever plane is used and the same amount of restoring force will be required irrespective of the planes mass as the heavier one has more momentum in the first place, which is what momentum is. But the plane will not have stalled so much through the cut ( as is correctly pointed out) . At some point a very light plane will stall completely to a stop whereas th more massive one will continue through

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Please also note that a knot, or any other imperfection that might slow the plane, will impart a given return force. This force will slow a plane with more momentum by a lesser amount than a plane with less momentum, true. However, the force required to accelerate the plane back to full speed will be equal to the force imparted by the imperfection in the first place.
Thus, weight and momentum, while making a plane seem smoother in a push, actually do not save any energy at all.

Fraser

Hello,.... I'm afraid your logic above s wrong....

Hello....No it isn't.
You need to do a bit of physics revision woodbrains.
There may well be advantages in heavier planes on some occasions but it's certainly not a general rule.
Compare axes and hammers - they work by imposing all the momentum gained in the swing on to a brief contact with the target. You couldn't get the same effect by just pushing at nail or an axe head even with the same amount of energy invested - it's the short sharp blow which does it.

 

[woodbrains]

Please also note that a knot, or any other imperfection that might slow the plane, will impart a given return force. This force will slow a plane with more momentum by a lesser amount than a plane with less momentum, true. However, the force required to accelerate the plane back to full speed will be equal to the force imparted by the imperfection in the first place.
Thus, weight and momentum, while making a plane seem smoother in a push, actually do not save any energy at all.

Fraser

Hello,.... I'm afraid your logic above s wrong....

Hello....No it isn't.
You need to do a bit of physics revision woodenbrane.
There may well be advantages in heavier planes on some occasions but it's certainly not a general rule.
Compare axes and hammers - they work by imposing all the momentum gained in the swing on to a brief contact with the target. You couldn't get the same effect by just pushing at nail or an axe head even with the same amount of energy invested - it's the short sharp blow which does it.
I'll leave that with you woodbine - think on! And give wikipedia a go with the physics revision.

Afraid not Jacob, my physics may be rusty, but it s reasonable enough here. What you are talking about here is impulse, or rate of change of momentum, if you prefer. You can impose enough force by just pushing... You must have seen a push pin before. Admittedly, we cannot do this with 6 inch nails, (because we are too puny, but an elephant could, more massive you see) which is why we use a big hammer with some momentum. You will never knock a 6 inch nail in with a jewellers hammer. You cannot get enough hand speed to attain the same momentum as a 28 oz framers hammer. You just keep affirming my point, Jacob.

Mike

 

[Jacob]

.................

Hello,.... I'm afraid your logic above s wrong....

Hello....No it isn't.
You need to do a bit of physics revision woodenbrane.
There may well be advantages in heavier planes on some occasions but it's certainly not a general rule.
Compare axes and hammers - they work by imposing all the momentum gained in the swing on to a brief contact with the target. You couldn't get the same effect by just pushing at nail or an axe head even with the same amount of energy invested - it's the short sharp blow which does it.
I'll leave that with you woodbine - think on! And give wikipedia a go with the physics revision.

Afraid not Jacob, my physics may be rusty, but it s reasonable enough here. What you are talking about here is impulse, or rate of change of momentum, if you prefer. You can impose enough force by just pushing... You must have seen a push pin before. Admittedly, we cannot do this with 6 inch nails, (because we are too puny, but an elephant could, more massive you see) which is why we use a big hammer with some momentum. You will never knock a 6 inch nail in with a jewellers hammer. You cannot get enough hand speed to attain the same momentum as a 28 oz framers hammer. You just keep affirming my point, Jacob.

Mike

Hello.....
Yes sounds OK you are getting there.
Now apply this to planing n.b. you would have to explain why some people can plane with the equivalent of a jewellers hammer, spectacularly so in the case of a light wooden scrub.

 

[G S Haydon]

A heavier plane would overcome resistance better thanks to it's momentum but it would be tiring to use. A heavy plane would best be kept for fine finishing. An infill plane is a prime example of this concept.

A lighter plane is better for general use, unless you like a workout.

Personal preferences may change the above.

In addition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8

 

[Corneel]

As long as you push the plane through the wood at a constant speed and the wood is rather homogenous, the momentum does nothing for you. We do agree about that one, do we?

 

[Paul Chapman]

I do all my planning by hand and have always found that heavy planes work much better and more effectively than light ones. One of the reasons I favour Clifton planes is that, size for size, they are heavier than most planes by other manufacturers. I'm not particularly big or strong but I've never found heavy planes tiresome to use compared with lighter ones. In fact, because they are more effective I find heavy planes less tiresome to use.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[G S Haydon]

"and the wood is rather homogenous"

As long as :wink: And it's up to you, no law out there banning heavy or light planes. Never read a book that said light good, heavy bad or vice versa. As a general rule the heavy infills would be for the final high quality finish should it be required and the lighter wooden planes for general use. That said, do what makes you happy. Heavy or light I don't give a s~i?e

 

[Corneel]

No indeed, use whatever you like.

But there was some disagreement abouth physics and it got a bit unclear who disagrees about what exactly, so I thought, to take it in small steps. I am certainly not the brightest head in physics, it's been 25 years ago.

So we do agree about that one small thesis do we?

 

[G S Haydon]

Sadly corneel in the contest of not being bright you will see me with a gold medal . All I can say is heavy with momentum for fine, fine finishing and lighter for general use. I can't take it any further than that ;-)

 

[Duncumb.fc]

Please also note that a knot, or any other imperfection that might slow the plane, will impart a given return force. This force will slow a plane with more momentum by a lesser amount than a plane with less momentum, true. However, the force required to accelerate the plane back to full speed will be equal to the force imparted by the imperfection in the first place.
Thus, weight and momentum, while making a plane seem smoother in a push, actually do not save any energy at all.

Fraser

Hello,

Like I said earlier, if your preference is for a wooden plane or a lighter plane then fine, I'm not trying to change people's opinions on that. But the original argument was that a heavy plane has no advantage in the respect to being able to sail through ornery stuff, which is not true Nd the point I was trying to explain. I'm afraid your logic above s wrong. Do not try to justify a preference with poor logic, just state your preference and stand by it. The reason these forums run away is that poor logic is used over and over to try to win a point. It is not necessar I love wooden planes and I know sharp irons are most desirable thing and work wonders. But don't use bad logic to prove a point, it just becomes exasperating trying to explain over and over what is often irrefutable.

For anyone still interested, the above situation is not right because the opposing force exerted by the knot, or whatever, is the same for whichever plane is used and the same amount of restoring force will be required irrespective of the planes mass as the heavier one has more momentum in the first place, which is what momentum is. But the plane will not have stalled so much through the cut ( as is correctly pointed out) . At some point a very light plane will stall completely to a stop whereas th more massive one will continue through

Mike.

Actually Jacob,
Mike has made a good point here.

My physics only work up until the point where the impulse on the plane is greater than the energy needed to push the plane. For small knots, this will not be the case, and therefore the above stands, but for larger knots Mike is definitely right.
I prefer woodies, because I prefer the lower coefficient of friction, but having said that, in instrument making I rarely have to plane down a large board, and even more rarely do I come across knots. Perhaps if I did my opinion would change

Fraser

 

[Duncumb.fc]

As long as you push the plane through the wood at a constant speed and the wood is rather homogenous, the momentum does nothing for you. We do agree about that one, do we?

Yes we do, or I do at least.
However, so far we have ignored the coefficient of friction, and the energy needed to overcome friction.

Fraser

 

[Jacob]

Yes but you use different planes differently. If it's heavy this will help in some circumstances but not others, and vice versa. But in general light weight means less work. As a rule a plane is not used like an axe, with a long swing gathering momentum towards a short cut.

 

[woodbrains]

As long as you push the plane through the wood at a constant speed and the wood is rather homogenous, the momentum does nothing for you. We do agree about that one, do we?

Yes we do, or I do at least.
However, so far we have ignored the coefficient of friction, and the energy needed to overcome friction.

Fraser

Custard is fairly homogenous, but I would prefer to push a snooker ball through it than a ping pong ball.

Excuse the perverse metaphor here, but I think it conveys the point.

Momentum will overcome friction as wall as cutting resistance.

Mike.

 

[Corneel]

So, putting sandbags in the boot of the car helps to save on fuel? You have invented the perpetum mobile, congratulations.

Which brings me to the second one. Moving a heavier weight from a to b (and back) takes more energy. I suppose everyone agrees about that.

So, that leaves irregularities in the wood. And yes more weight helps but it comes at a cost: more energy.

There are other ways to deal with irregularities. In the first place a sharp blade. "Sharp cures everything".
You can skew the plane, you can plane across the grain in a heavy cut, you can choose your stock wisely, you can wax the bottom. You can even lean on the plane to alter the weight dynamically when you need it.

It's all a matter of perception too. Someone who paid a lot for an extra heavy plane feels more difference them someone who got it for free. That's human nature, not physics.

 

[Duncumb.fc]

So, putting sandbags in the boot of the car helps to save on fuel? You have invented the perpetum mobile, congratulations.

Which brings me to the second one. Moving a heavier weight from a to b (and back) takes more energy. I suppose everyone agrees about that.

So, that leaves irregularities in the wood. And yes more weight helps but it comes at a cost: more energy.

There are other ways to deal with irregularities. In the first place a sharp blade. "Sharp cures everything".
You can skew the plane, you can plane across the grain in a heavy cut, you can choose your stock wisely, you can wax the bottom. You can even lean on the plane to alter the weight dynamically when you need it.

It's all a matter of perception too. Someone who paid a lot for an extra heavy plane feels more difference them someone who got it for free. That's human nature, not physics.

Corneel has nailed it!
Thanks!

Fraser