US Election November 5th

[Ed Weber]

I wish I had an answer but as I said, there is no solution that everyone will agree with.
This area of the world has been at each others throats for thousands of years. I think it's the height of arrogance that anyone thinks they have a simple answer that will end the violence. At this point in time, it's ingrained into people at a young age that X is the enemy and it's your duty to protect Y.

 

[TRITON]

This area of the world has been at each others throats for thousands of years.

Actually I dont think thats the case.
Certainly people of that region have been fighting off invading armies, but thats the same the world over.

 

[martin45]

Ed Weber said:

You're 100% correct IMO
The problem is, that won't fit on a bumper sticker or T-shirt

What about “40,000 dead and counting”?

 

[Ed Weber]

Ed Weber said:

You're 100% correct IMO
The problem is, that won't fit on a bumper sticker or T-shirt

What about “40,000 dead and counting”?

What's it like to have all the answers to everything?

 

[martin45]

Ed Weber said@

What's it like to have all the answers to everything?

Its easy when people are making excuses for the slaughter of 40,000 + people.

 

[paulrbarnard]

What's it like to have all the answers to everything?

In this context I’d say sanctimonious…

 

[martin45]

• Ed Weber said:

What's it like to have all the answers to everything?

Paulrbarnard said:

In this context I’d say sanctimonious…

Being called “sanctimonious” for objecting to the murder of 40,000 + people won’t bother me.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

But do they really. The region of Palestine was always a mixed region, with Christian, Muslim and Jewish owning land there.
Over the centuries that became whittled down to Jewish and Muslim, and while there were small numbers of Jews and Christians, the predominant people were Muslim.
They have been supplanted by Jewish people farmed in from all over the world, who have no forebears from that region.

The American Amish are mostly in Pennsylvania. So does that mean that the state belongs to the Amish ? Or Scientology formed in Los Angeles, so does that mean Los Angeles belongs to the Scientologists.
Keep in mind these are religions, and only formed in some areas, but because thats where they formed, does that mean they have an automatic right to that land. Certainly it wasnt 'Gifted By God' because the God of today is not the god, or gods people have worshiped over the millennia.

No religion has claim, all religions have claim, perhaps only in a spiritual sense, but there it ends. They have no right to take the entire region for themselves and expelling or killing those living there so they can settle members of their own religion.

Anyway, this is a bit serious, so lets stop this here and i'll pop in a bit of humour, with a religious overtone
View attachment 184893

I appreciate the humour - and even the serious bits have some merit.

It all depends on timescales and perspectives - the region has always been a melting pot of cultures, on the silk routes, borders drawn by various imperialists searching for oil, and most recently the UN creation of a State of Israel (again drawn on a map with limited consultation).

Over the last 75 years no party to the assorted conflicts and stresses has emerged with credit:

• Israel understandably vigorously protects its own interests but has also settled the West Bank directly challenging UN resolutions and agreed borders
• adjacent Arab states have started wars - although Jordan, Egypt and more recently Saudi have sought more stable relationships
• the US has vacillated between seeking resolution and/or 2 state solutions, and do nothing because it is too difficult
• the UN with a more wide-reaching remit have been largely ineffectual
• Palestinian leadership has been almost wholly ineffective and allowed terrorism to flourish
• Israel left Gaza in 2005 in the control of the Palestinian Authority who were rapidly displaced by Hamas in 2007

I am unsurprised that Gazans feel completely marginalised and angry - overcrowded, poverty, corruption, etc. I suspect any protest about the Hamas leadership leads to swift physical reprisals.

The current conflict is just another unpleasant chapter in an on-going conflict. Blaming any of the parties to the conflict for the suffering, almost inevitable given the history, does nothing to resolve the problems.

The focus should be wholly shifted to how a permanent stable solution can be engineered which will involve real compromised from all parties.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I wonder if there's any chance of the hostages being handed back?

 

[TRITON]

I suspect any protest about the Hamas leadership leads to swift physical reprisals.

Obviously we cant know what really motivates them, either quest for power, or a wish to free themselves from under the oppression of the Israelis

But I would say that in WW2, the French resistance paid little attention to the suffering of the French people(reprisal killings etc) they took it as what was not important was the people and what was important was the country.
They put their lives on the line not for the French, but for France.

 

[Ed Weber]

Actually I dont think thats the case.
Certainly people of that region have been fighting off invading armies, but thats the same the world over.

• Ed Weber said:

Paulrbarnard said:

In this context I’d say sanctimonious…

Being called “sanctimonious” for objecting to the murder of 40,000 + people won’t bother me.

So, what is the solution?

 

[paulrbarnard]

• Ed Weber said:

Paulrbarnard said:

In this context I’d say sanctimonious…

Being called “sanctimonious” for objecting to the murder of 40,000 + people won’t bother me.

There you go again. No one has even remotely supported the murder of 40,000 people. Yet you continue to imply that people think it’s OK. That’s sanctimonious. Try making a post with a point rather than trying to guilt trip people and make them out as uncaring.

 

[Fergie 307]

In your own words "Perish the thought that it should be about policies rather than personalities."

Fair one, although Trump is just so revolting that I couldn't help it.

 

[Fergie 307]

Indeed, it does - but in advance of the 7th October, we should reflect on the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza for decades. Gaza has the right to defend itself from the forces that illegally control it, effectively making their people prisoners ensnared in poverty.

Ah so that's what Hamas were doing in October by killing unarmed civilians including women and children, they were defending themselves?
I suppose they have been defending themselves for years by firing countless thousands of rockets at Israel over the years. Weapons that are incapable of any real accuracy and so are by their very nature indiscriminate.
Didn't matter to Hamas of course, the aim was to kill Jews, any Jews, the more the better, and they have at least been honest enough to never pretend otherwise.
Exactly what the Israelis are now doing to them, except for the pretence on the part of Israel that they are striving to minimise civilian casualties.
And before anyone cries out about the scale. Do you seriously doubt that if Hamas had had the capability they would not have long ago meted out the sort of destruction upon Israel as the Israelis are now doing in Gaza?
So please let us not have these double standards.
Both sides have been as bad as one another from day one. Not necessarily the people as a whole, whether Israeli or Palestinian, but some of the truly awful people both sides have chosen as leaders, and the factions on both sides who have no desire for anything other than their opponents destruction.
If you look at the history every time there has been a realistic chance of peace the zealots on both sides have striven mightily to derail it, and often to murder those responsible for such treachery.
And so it continues.
Of course we should not continue to support Israel in the current campaign. It long ago surpassed what could possibly be deemed a proportionate response. But equally we should unequivocally condemn Hamas for their behaviour.
Both sides have been playing the same old game for decades. Hamas, or whoever the current faction are, kill some Jews, Israel reacts with often we quite disproportionate force.
High time you would think for both to realise the pointlessness of it. Hamas have never improved their situation in any way through their violence, any more than the Israeli's have improved their security though their punitive responses, as the October attack brutally demonstrated.

 

[Chris152]

Ah so that's what Hamas were doing in October by killing unarmed civilians including women and children, they were defending themselves?
I suppose they have been defending themselves for years by firing countless thousands of rockets at Israel over the years. Weapons that are incapable of any real accuracy and so are by their very nature indiscriminate.
Didn't matter to Hamas of course, the aim was to kill Jews, any Jews, the more the better, and they have at least been honest enough to never pretend otherwise.
Exactly what the Israelis are now doing to them, except for the pretence on the part of Israel that they are striving to minimise civilian casualties.
And before anyone cries out about the scale. Do you seriously doubt that if Hamas had had the capability they would not have long ago meted out the sort of destruction upon Israel as the Israelis are now doing in Gaza?
So please let us not have these double standards.
Both sides have been as bad as one another from day one. Not necessarily the people as a whole, whether Israeli or Palestinian, but some of the truly awful people both sides have chosen as leaders, and the factions on both sides who have no desire for anything other than their opponents destruction.
If you look at the history every time there has been a realistic chance of peace the zealots on both sides have striven mightily to derail it, and often to murder those responsible for such treachery.
And so it continues.
Of course we should not continue to support Israel in the current campaign. It long ago surpassed what could possibly be deemed a proportionate response. But equally we should unequivocally condemn Hamas for their behaviour.
Both sides have been playing the same old game for decades. Hamas, or whoever the current faction are, kill some Jews, Israel reacts with often we quite disproportionate force.
High time you would think for both to realise the pointlessness of it. Hamas have never improved their situation in any way through their violence, any more than the Israeli's have improved their security though their punitive responses, as the October attack brutally demonstrated.

One is the oppressor, one is the oppressed. Writing about them as if they're somehow equals, as bad as each other, completely fails to understand the history and dynamics of the relationship. I'm not defending either side, just trying to understand a truly terrible situation.

 

[Cabinetman]

Ah so that's what Hamas were doing in October by killing unarmed civilians including women and children, they were defending themselves?
I suppose they have been defending themselves for years by firing countless thousands of rockets at Israel over the years. Weapons that are incapable of any real accuracy and so are by their very nature indiscriminate.
Didn't matter to Hamas of course, the aim was to kill Jews, any Jews, the more the better, and they have at least been honest enough to never pretend otherwise.
Exactly what the Israelis are now doing to them, except for the pretence on the part of Israel that they are striving to minimise civilian casualties.
And before anyone cries out about the scale. Do you seriously doubt that if Hamas had had the capability they would not have long ago meted out the sort of destruction upon Israel as the Israelis are now doing in Gaza?
So please let us not have these double standards.
Both sides have been as bad as one another from day one. Not necessarily the people as a whole, whether Israeli or Palestinian, but some of the truly awful people both sides have chosen as leaders, and the factions on both sides who have no desire for anything other than their opponents destruction.
If you look at the history every time there has been a realistic chance of peace the zealots on both sides have striven mightily to derail it, and often to murder those responsible for such treachery.
And so it continues.
Of course we should not continue to support Israel in the current campaign. It long ago surpassed what could possibly be deemed a proportionate response. But equally we should unequivocally condemn Hamas for their behaviour.
Both sides have been playing the same old game for decades. Hamas, or whoever the current faction are, kill some Jews, Israel reacts with often we quite disproportionate force.
High time you would think for both to realise the pointlessness of it. Hamas have never improved their situation in any way through their violence, any more than the Israeli's have improved their security though their punitive responses, as the October attack brutally demonstrated.

That’s a pretty fair assessment of it, not long before the Oct attack the people of Gaza gave their Hamas leaders a 95% approval rating,with backing like that its no wonder they thought they could get away with anything.
And the rest of the world tries to impose a two State solution on them both, they are both violently opposed to it, hasn’t worked in the past and it won’t work this time.
Just what the answer is is anybody’s guess, especially when you bring in the religious ties to the land that they both espouse.

 

[Fergie 307]

Obviously we cant know what really motivates them, either quest for power, or a wish to free themselves from under the oppression of the Israelis

But I would say that in WW2, the French resistance paid little attention to the suffering of the French people(reprisal killings etc) they took it as what was not important was the people and what was important was the country.
They put their lives on the line not for the French, but for France.

A pretty daft comparison, or self defeating if you prefer.
The French resistance did well because their objectives, of resisting the occupation of their country, was supported by the majority of the population, who I dare say considered the sacrifices worth it in pursuit of that perfectly reasonable objective. Furthermore the resistance overwhelmingly focussed their attacks on the occupying forces and active collaborators.
Hamas objective far exceeds the cause fought for by the resistance. It is the destruction of the Israeli state and people, essentially genocide against Israel.
They have historically much preferred attacks on soft civilian targets, and have always favoured rockets and other completely indiscriminate weapons.
Do the majority of the Palestinian people support that? I suspect not, and indeed would they really deserve our sympathy if they did.

 

[Fergie 307]

One is the oppressor, one is the oppressed. Writing about them as if they're somehow equals, as bad as each other, completely fails to understand the history and dynamics of the relationship. I'm not defending either side, just trying to understand a truly terrible situation.

Can you imagine what would happen to Israel if the relative firepower were reversed?
We can debate till the cows come home the rights and wrongs of the establishment of the state of Israel.
What is very clear is that the Arab states tried very hard to destroy the country on a number of occasions from day one.
But for the fighting qualities of the Israelis, and the staggering military ineptitude of her enemies, they would have succeeded.
You could well argue that throughout her formative years Israel was the oppressed, surrounded as she was by neighbours hell bent on her destruction. Easy to see how that can embed a certain attitude on a country's population.
Most of those old enemies have made peace with Israel, but the memory of those events is too recent to be easily forgotten.
The Israeli right have always been only too keen to draw on it as justification for the sort of thing they are up to now.
The only way I can see it being resolved is by a two state solution. Both sides will have to accept compromises to achieve that.
The Americans could probably force Israel to accept an agreement, if there was a president with the will to do so, and if he or she could get political agreement at home. Both major challenges.
But who could play a similar role in relation to Hamas? Perhaps a coalition of the surrounding Arab states?
I have no idea, but if you look to the US as a potential guarantor of Israeli compliance with such a deal, then you need someone with similar influence over the Palestinians as well.
At the moment the US have showed themselves completely unwilling to take the steps necessary to check Israeli excess, and Hamas are backed by the likes of Iran, who share their desire to see Israel fall, so a non starter on the face of it.
Should of course be the job of the UN, and it is to a great extent a mess of their own creation, but they have become increasingly a paper tiger.
My view is that the only hope of a meaningful and lasting peace is if more reasonable leaders emerge on both sides, people who can neutralise the zealots.
At the moment we are about as far as we have ever been from that situation, as it is the zealots that are running the show on both sides.

 

[Noel]

Can we please swing west to Washington DC - Biden/Harris/Trump/Vance? Nov 5th etc.

 

[Fergie 307]

Fair comment, the usual mission creep has set in. Apologies.
Harris at least seems to be pretty secure as the Democratic candidate, and the money seems to be pouring in for her campaign.
Can she beat Trump, I would like to think so but my head says probably not.
If only there was a better candidate, maybe a certain ex president's wife ?
Now there's a thought.