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AJB Temple":t08qzfnb said:
Subsidising the Euro is a meaningless soundbite.
I am sorry you think that.

You might care to look back at how much money Osborne paid over in the early days of the coalition.

We run a significant deficit - have done since Thatcher's era. We BORROWED to bail out the eurozone banks. Sterling isn't the issue in that context.

How big a deficit do you want to finance?
None at all. Deficit spending without paying back in good times is stupid. Even Keynes admitted that.

I hate soundbytes too.

PS: I do know of what I speak. I could go on about orders in Council, the table behind the Speaker's chair, etc. and the acquis communautaire. But I get a distinct feeling there's little point.
 
I think the danger with all this Eric is that people argue from entrenched positions and guys who share an interest in wood work risk losing the plot over politics. For example, I am not sure what you mean by a "Eurozone" bank. If you mean, for example, the government stakes taken in RBS and Lloyds, it is not at all clear to me what the Eurozone has really got to do with their near collapse. The reality of the banking crisis is much more complex than blaming greedy bankers, but the media would have us believe otherwise. And it pre-dates Osborne.

Thatcher is long dead and her era was a long time ago. We need to look forward and analyse logically what is likely to happen in the next decade if we do this or that. It will affect our children and we need to put emotion aside.
 
Eric The Viking":sdp1ldvj said:
Any of those negative?
Most are.
Most will need years of legislation and cost a fortune that will never be recovered.

It's easy for old nostalgic folk with little at financial risk to be swayed by the right wing press's grooming of Euro scepticism based on miss placed patriotism and xenophobia, but most working folk in the UK stand to make substantial and unrecoverable losses by leaving the EU.
 
AJB Temple":2qh26bw3 said:
Thatcher is long dead and her era was a long time ago.
Unfortunately not, her legacy of privatisation and expecting the 'free market' to handle everything is still strong in the Tories and continues to slowly be destroying the country.
eg The right to buy, selling off our schools as 'academies', selling off the land registry

Plus many of the effects of past Thatcherite policies continue to slowly destroy former state institutions.
 
phil.p":20luiy08 said:
And of course we all remember how phenomenally successful state industries were, don't we? :D
Yes they were. Where are they now?
Luckily Heath had the sense to nationalise Rolls Royce but what happened to ICI and all the other big operators now foreign owned, run abroad or disappeared entirely?
Many of our utilities are now run by state industries which belong to other states, not our own. Madness.
 
@AJB: To be clear: Osborne, in his first Parliament as chancellor, "donated" money to bailout eurozone banks. The euro would quite possibly have collapsed at that point otherwise, as few other sources of funding (i.e. untainted, from outside the eurozone) were forthcoming.

We run a deficit; Osborne borrowed to finance it and we are still paying back and paying interest on that loan, which is unlikely ever to be repaid to us, let alone with interest.

I'm bugging out of this thread now. I agree it doesn't belong here, but like the ancient bull in the field, I'm afraid I charged at the red rag.

For that, my apologies.

E.
 
There was rather a drift from the original observation, wasn't there? No change there, then. Still, it's run a while without being locked, so at least it's stayed civil. :D
 
Not just here but in the real world; the more people talk about stuff the more civil it is likely to be. By and large people aren't evil beasts or madmen even though they are often wrong about everything! When talk is repressed or discouraged people nurture grievances, get angry and rely on dodgy sources of info (Daly Mail etc).
Better out than in!
 
A subject like this is always going to stimulate passionate debate. That's actually something I'm glad about because I've learnt stuff as we've gone along.

Helps shape thinking and dispel myths, - of which there are far too many.

Eric, - you shouldn't apologise for feeling passionate about it!

Perhaps instead we should be discussing the proposed European Harmonisation of dovetails .........
 
I had decided to stop posting on this thread :roll:
Because I have made up my mind and have no desire to inflict my opinions on others, but.........

I echo what others say, its nice we are civilised enough on this forum not to start a slanging match.
 
stuartpaul":ebcyyoqa said:
Perhaps instead we should be discussing the proposed European Harmonisation of dovetails .........

I'm surprised no one mentioned the proposed EEC directive for honeing guides
 
lurker":17moh5tn said:
stuartpaul":17moh5tn said:
Perhaps instead we should be discussing the proposed European Harmonisation of dovetails .........

I'm surprised no one mentioned the proposed EEC directive for honeing guides
It wouldn't surprise me on iota if someone in Brussels and someone else in Strasbourg had one planned.
 
[making a guest appearance & wearing a mask]

I've just Googled it:

The European Directive on the Harmonization of Dovetails (E.D.O.T.H.O.D. pron. "Eddy Thud") was introduced in 1999, by the then Transport Commissioner, Martin Bangemann, otherwise infamous for wanting motorcycles either banned completely* or fitted with airbags*.

Bangemann was concerned that use of different dovetail angles might lead to disastrous situations on historic sleeper trains such as the Orient Express: if passengers pulled hard on drawers in their compartments whilst the train was running on bumpy track, the drawers might come apart completely, leaving everything within exposed to other passengers in the same compartment, not to mention nasty splinters on the floor.

At the time, Bangemann himself was walking with the aid of a cane, prompting speculation that it was caused by just such an incident on the special bi-monthly service between Brussels and Strasbourg. Others claimed he was just a miserable, interfering old git who simply wasn't getting enough (travel, I mean, obviously), leaving historians to argue the point for decades to come.

Leaving aside the fact that drawers were normally treated in this way on sleeper trains anyway, without any complaints (at least in the Poirot-type things my wife likes to watch, featuring steamy brunettes, Tom Hiddleston, etc.), the measure was roughly and quickly draughted by the Commission bureaucrats.

Sketchup being not yet invented, the only resources available were Joseph Moxon, pirate copies of Underhill (on Philips V-2000, naturally) and AutoCad on i386 machines. The latter caused several very nasty cases of schielen-pixel, as, by an internal order from Directorate Twenty (auditing), Commission PCs had been locked at 640x480 to maintain pan-European compatibility with the Accession countries.

Debate in the European Parliament was brief but feisty. The German Democrats claimed that standardization was the only way, and that the old "Escher" angle of 7.68 degrees should be made compulsory ("Der einzige Weg ist Escher"). UKIP's three new MEPs heckled and chanted, "We're all Angles now!". At the time, this was thought to have been an obscure reference to St. Augustine, but later was revealed to have been a reference to Farage's favourite micro-brewery brand, "All Angles" (they actually had pints of the stuff concealed under their desks, as usual).

The vote teetered on a knife-edge (fairly blunt though, as Japanese water stones had been refused an import licence). Despite the initial hubris, UKIP's MEPs couldn't agree on a strategy (and couldn't find their voting cards either by that time). The final vote was 623:0 (UKIP abstained).

Of course, nobody in the chamber had actually read the legislation beforehand. They generally felt that was what they paid bureaucrats for. So the alterations, made by a rogue legal draughtsman brought in from Agriculture, were missed entirely.

Angry about his secondment to transport and being removed from the Field Counting Initiative** of the Common Agricultural Policy, he decided to simply substitute a long, curvy rant about Bananas. Nothing was spotted, until a UKIP aide, trying to use the document to mop up a beer ring on an MEP's desk, noticed it wasn't about dovetails at all.

And the rest is, of course, history.

Thought I should put the record straight,

E.


*Those bits are actually true. He was M.A.G.'s dartboard pin-up for years.
** Also true, sort-of: I had a friend here who worked for the Min of Ag. in the 1990s They had an entire department of 50+ people responsible for field counting (to comply with the CAP). And that was just the West of England bit. One should never say the EU hasn't helped employment in the UK...
 
Eric The Viking":3bjdaecz said:
........ I had a friend here who worked for the Min of Ag. in the 1990s They had an entire department of 50+ people responsible for field counting (to comply with the CAP). And that was just the West of England bit. ........
There's a lot of this rumour stuff going about. As a rule I simply don't believe it - probably there will be a true story somewhere at the bottom of it which will be much more sensible, reasonable and less sensationalist.

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eur ... a-z-index/
 
The thing is is that no matter how ridiculous a story about the EU is, people will believe it - because they have read so much about the EU that is ridiculous, but true.
 
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