It really is another world, isn't it?

[DiscoStu]

I know the JLR is owned by Tata but you are still buying a car made in Britain by British people.

With regards to the Thatcher comment I was really referring to the fact that she spoke up for the UK, something that doesn't seem to happen these days.

As AJB says, go to Germany and you'll see the road is full of German cars, same in France. Now I know I mentioned Jag and Land Rover and I do appreciate that we can't all drive them. If you look back then we get to Rover and they really were the last big British car manufacturer. Yet they closed, people blame government etc but if we the British public aren't buying their cars then surely it's us that's at fault. If everyone in the UK bought British cars Rover would be flourishing. In fact as I type this I am beginning to think that not being in the EU is the way to go? I've really been on the fence but I'm starting to opt towards the Out side.


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[RogerS]

....If you look back then we get to Rover ....

Ah, but was this before or after the Phoenix Four. And even before them, let's face it....Rovers were pretty naff (apart from Disco's and Range Rovers !!) compared to what the Japanese were producing. They had an appalling reputation for reliability IIRC.

 

[Rhossydd]

If you look back then we get to Rover and they really were the last big British car manufacturer. Yet they closed, people blame government etc but if we the British public aren't buying their cars then surely it's us that's at fault.

Rover folded not because people didn't 'buy British', but because the cars were second rate.
Patriotism shouldn't over rule common sense.

 

[RogerS]

If you look back then we get to Rover and they really were the last big British car manufacturer. Yet they closed, people blame government etc but if we the British public aren't buying their cars then surely it's us that's at fault.

Rover folded not because people didn't 'buy British', but because the cars were second rate.
Patriotism shouldn't over rule common sense.

And also we shouldn't ignore the appalling management/union relationships. Remember 'Red Robbo' ..... a man credited with causing 523 walkouts at British Leyland between 1978 and 1979, costing an estimated £200 million in lost production. No smoke without fire and I know that BL management were equally culpable (the ex-MD's secretary used to work for me and spilled the beans).

 

[Rhossydd]

And also we shouldn't ignore the appalling management/union relationships.

It that really relevant to why people stopped buying British cars ?

I know that BL management were equally culpable

Quite. Poor management creates industrial unrest.

 

[RogerS]

And also we shouldn't ignore the appalling management/union relationships.

It that really relevant to why people stopped buying British cars ?

Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows. Nitpicking.

I know that BL management were equally culpable

Quite. Poor management creates industrial unrest.

Nonsense. You ignore the agenda of the unions and union leaders - which I was at great pains to point out. Both sides are equally to blame for poor industrial relations. Neither side exists in a vacuum. To suggest otherwise is naive.

 

[Rhossydd]

Nonsense.

No, if workers are happy they don't go on strike. It's dead simple. Why aren't they happy ? poor management.

 

[RogerS]

Nonsense.

No, if workers are happy they don't go on strike. It's dead simple. Why aren't they happy ? poor management.

Whatever.

 

[Jacob]

If you look back then we get to Rover and they really were the last big British car manufacturer. Yet they closed, people blame government etc but if we the British public aren't buying their cars then surely it's us that's at fault.

Rover folded not because people didn't 'buy British', but because the cars were second rate.
Patriotism shouldn't over rule common sense.

Same with motorbikes. The best of British were all prewar designs progressively modified but never radically redesigned. The Japs reworked them from bottom up and came up with a totally superior product.
Oddly enough - one of the very few "modern" British bikes was the BSA Bantam - based on the German DKW RT 125, a design that was received as war reparations. The other was the 1953 Velocette LE which was too little developed and too late.
I blame complacent conservative management and lack of government investment.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I know the JLR is owned by Tata but you are still buying a car made in Britain by British people.

With regards to the Thatcher comment I was really referring to the fact that she spoke up for the UK, something that doesn't seem to happen these days.

As AJB says, go to Germany and you'll see the road is full of German cars, same in France. Now I know I mentioned Jag and Land Rover and I do appreciate that we can't all drive them. If you look back then we get to Rover and they really were the last big British car manufacturer. Yet they closed, people blame government etc but if we the British public aren't buying their cars then surely it's us that's at fault. If everyone in the UK bought British cars Rover would be flourishing. In fact as I type this I am beginning to think that not being in the EU is the way to go? I've really been on the fence but I'm starting to opt towards the Out side.


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I think it's a straight choice between being governed by a bunch of idiots in Westminster whom we elect, and because they want our votes have to listen to us at least some of the time, or being governed by a bunch of idiots in Brussels whom we don't elect and in consequence have absolutely no need to take the slightest notice of anything we think. Everything else is just arguing about details.

 

[Rhossydd]

governed by ... Brussels whom we don't elect

Except we DO elect MEPs and there's over 2,000 UK staff working for the EU in Brussels making regulations etc that apply across Europe.

Why don't people get that we are part of the EU now and take a role in the creation of EU laws and regulation ?

 

[Jacob]

Cheshirechappie wrote:
governed by ... Brussels whom we don't elect

I don't understand why this myth gets perpetuated it's easy enough to find out the facts.
EU is a democratic institution run by elected MEPs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections ... Parliament

The other popular myth is loss of sovereignty - yes we voluntarily agree to abide by rules whilst we are in but we can pull out any time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawa ... pean_Union

 

[RogerS]

Must be in an alternative universe.

Let me see. The European Commission whose role is to, now let me get this right...

- propose legislation which is then adopted by the co-legislators, the European Parliament (ie MEPs) and the Council of Ministers (note ..they propose..they are the drivers)

- enforce European law (where necessary with the help of the Court of Justice of the EU)

- set objectives and priorities for action, outlined yearly in the Commission Work Programme and work towards delivering them

- manage and implement EU policies and the budget (note..the accounts still haven't been signed off for the last, what was it? Ten years?

Now, how do the European Commissioners who do this get appointed? Mmmm...tricky one that..ah yes...the President chooses them. Now where do I put my vote ?

 

[Jacob]

These things are easy to check. They are chosen by each member state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner
The "President" : "this post presides only over the European Council – an institution of the EU – rather than presiding over the EU as a whole. The post does not have any executive powers and is unlike heads of states such as the President of the United States of America or the President of France: it is far more akin to chairman. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President ... pean_Union

 

[RogerS]

Ok, Jacob...you can ignore the reality if you like. It is perfectly clear what the role is. It's on their website. I'll take no further part in the thread.

 

[Droogs]

EU commissioners are as democratically elected to the post as much as the UK Prime Minister. By that I mean they are not. Just as the PM is appointed so are they, and what gets my goat here in good ol' blighty is, that ours is appointed by another appointee who is not directly elected by the British people. After all, remember, the party leader of each party selected (recent Labour events aside) only by the parliamentary party members of each not the general electorate. whoever wins is then the person appointed as PM if that party wins an election. NO British voter has ever voted for a PM only a local representative MP.
For me the biggest problem with us and the EU is the fact that our respective legal systems are based on diametrically opposed view points, in that continental Europe follows the napolionic legal system in which everything you want to do is forbidden unless expressly permitted by legislation and the british system works under the premis that you can do what you like unless expressly forbidden or controlled by legislation. Unfortunately the people who have the most legislative power in the EU are the appointees rather than the elected officials from each state and that by being a member you agree that EU laws superceed your own.
I may sound like an brexiter but after spending a large part of my adult life picking up the pieces left by human conflict and mans ability to inflict so much harm to his fellow that I firmly believe the EU has achieved is main goal of preventing another 26 million people dying needlesssley in another war in Europe and has brought about a stable and mostly productive and beneficial living environment for all it's citizens and this lets me live with straight bananas and french lamb. So I guess I'm a "bremainer"

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Peace in Europe was achieved by NATO and Uncle Sam waving a big stick . It was precious little to do with the EU.
Mentioning French lamb - remember the hoo ha about the Welsh live exports some years ago? It transpired that they could be sold as French under EU rules - so long as they had been kept on a French farm for a week ... and of course the French wouldn't buy them if they were imported frozen and sold as Welsh. Wonderful place, the EU ... if you happen to work for it.

 

[Jacob]

The "democratic deficit" is endlessly discussed. http://www.princeton.edu/~amoravcs/libr ... ropean.pdf
The EU isn't static - it's changing all the time, according to the will of the people, by one means or another, generally for the better.
If we are IN, amongst many other benefits, we are in a position to influence changes.

 

[Jacob]

Peace in Europe was achieved by NATO and Uncle Sam waving a big stick . It was precious little to do with the EU.
Mentioning French lamb - remember the hoo ha about the Welsh live exports some years ago? It transpired that they could be sold as French under EU rules - so long as they had been kept on a French farm for a week ... and of course the French wouldn't buy them if they were imported frozen and sold as Welsh. Wonderful place, the EU ... if you happen to work for it.

Yebbut all these niggling details do not make the whole picture. There will be dodging, exploitation of rules, irritations, large and small, whatever system we have in place, in or out.
Many of the popular ones are fictional - straight bananas/cucumbers etc. :lol:
If we are in we have some influence.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

In case you'd not noticed - we've had zilch influence for the past 43 years. Why does anyone think that's suddenly going to change?