I never thought that I'd say this but ...

[MikeJhn]

View attachment 189843

Conveniently forgot to add Iran"s religious sect taking out its own Government and killing thousands of the opposition, what is worse coming to the aid of those that can not defend themselves or killing your own population who don't agree with you.

On Trump, don't forget his daughter is married to a Jew.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Conveniently forgot to add Iran"s religious sect taking out its own Government and killing thousands of the opposition, what is worse coming to the aid of those that can not defend themselves or killing your own population who don't agree with you.

On Trump, don't forget his daughter is married to a Jew.

Amnesty International report on human rights in Iran Amnesty Int

• crushed protests using unlawful force and mass arrests
• thousands were subjected to interrogation, arbitrary detention, unjust prosecution, and imprisonment
• enforced disappearances, and torture widespread and systematic
• women and girls, LGBTI people, and ethnic and religious minorities were subjected to systemic discrimination and violence
• cruel and inhuman punishments, including flogging, were imposed and implemented
• use of the death penalty as a tool of political repression
• trials systematically unfair
• systemic impunity prevailed for past and ongoing crimes against humanity
• compulsory veiling laws and morality police
• lethal force used during largely peaceful protests

But at least they haven't invaded anyone, despite a long spat with Iraq which killed an estimated 1-2m from both sides. War by proxy through funding and equipping Hamas, Houtis and Hezbollah who would like to invade properly but mostly just shoot rockets isn't an Iranian invasion anyway.

 

[RobinBHM]

Yes ... I know it is rather simplistic but it makes a point & that is why I appreciate it.

I appreciate what you are saying, but as a standalone meme its pretty misleading to say the least

its a meme that gets posted on twitter constantly as whataboutery to excuse Putin invading Ukraine.

 

[Spectric]

• crushed protests using unlawful force and mass arrests
• thousands were subjected to interrogation, arbitrary detention, unjust prosecution, and imprisonment
• enforced disappearances, and torture widespread and systematic
• women and girls, LGBTI people, and ethnic and religious minorities were subjected to systemic discrimination and violence
• cruel and inhuman punishments, including flogging, were imposed and implemented
• use of the death penalty as a tool of political repression
• trials systematically unfair
• systemic impunity prevailed for past and ongoing crimes against humanity
• compulsory veiling laws and morality police
• lethal force used during largely peaceful protests

Sounds like a lesson in British history, old Henry was guilty of a lot of that.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Sounds like a lesson in British history, old Henry was guilty of a lot of that.

Absolutely right - all that separates what we now regard as enlightened governance from gross abuse of human rights is a century or two.

 

[TRITON]

Conveniently forgot to add Iran"s religious sect taking out its own Government and killing thousands of the opposition, what is worse coming to the aid of those that can not defend themselves or killing your own population who don't agree with you.

On Trump, don't forget his daughter is married to a Jew.

Ever heard of the English civil war, or the war of the roses ?
War of the roses - 105,000 dead
English civil war - 90,000 plus a further 127,000 non combatants including 40,000 civilians
Then we have a whole host of rebellions, including the Jacobite rebellion, as well as a fair old few religious massacres.
So when it comes to internal battles and strife within a country, it seems a bit rich to single out Iran.

crushed protests using unlawful force and mass arrests

Happened in England,Wales, Scotland, and Ireland - up until recently. Perhaps you've heard of the Maze and H-blocks as well as internment, which involved rounding up and imprisoning people without trial.

• enforced disappearances, and torture widespread and systematic
• women and girls, LGBTI people, and ethnic and religious minorities were subjected to systemic discrimination and violence
• cruel and inhuman punishments, including flogging, were imposed and implemented
• use of the death penalty as a tool of political repression
• trials systematically unfair
• systemic impunity prevailed for past and ongoing crimes against humanity
• compulsory veiling laws and morality police
• lethal force used during largely peaceful protests

And again we can look to our own history, as well as that of Europe and you will find all of that as examples. For instance massacres by the British army in India, including machine gunning peaceful protestors. Total killed in these instances are in the tens of thousands.

Yup, when it comes to mass killing, you'll need to go a long way to find anyone as good as it by England.

But of course much of that is in earlier times, and you have to look towards modern times for examples of oppression. Women in the suffragette movement, imprisoned and force feeding regimes, or the fact that it took until 1967 before Homosexuality became legal.
It really pains me to think of the horrors gay men and women we subjected to not only by the government and police, but by the general public as well.

And yes I do agree that Iran has a whole skew of problems, but lets not be hypocritical.

Iran is extremely rich in natural resources like petroleum and natural gas as well as many minerals. Im sure the carpetbagger's would love unfettered access to al that, especially at low low prices

Or perhaps you need reminding about Operation Condor, which is probably the prime reason South America is in the turmoil it is currently in.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Ever heard of the English civil war, or the war of the roses ?
War of the roses - 105,000 dead
English civil war - 90,000 plus a further 127,000 non combatants including 40,000 civilians
Then we have a whole host of rebellions, including the Jacobite rebellion, as well as a fair old few religious massacres.
So when it comes to internal battles and strife within a country, it seems a bit rich to single out Iran.


Happened in England,Wales, Scotland, and Ireland - up until recently. Perhaps you've heard of the Maze and H-blocks as well as internment, which involved rounding up and imprisoning people without trial.

And again we can look to our own history, as well as that of Europe and you will find all of that as examples. For instance massacres by the British army in India, including machine gunning peaceful protestors. Total killed in these instances are in the tens of thousands.

Yup, when it comes to mass killing, you'll need to go a long way to find anyone as good as it by England.

But of course much of that is in earlier times, and you have to look towards modern times for examples of oppression. Women in the suffragette movement, imprisoned and force feeding regimes, or the fact that it took until 1967 before Homosexuality became legal.
It really pains me to think of the horrors gay men and women we subjected to not only by the government and police, but by the general public as well.

And yes I do agree that Iran has a whole skew of problems, but lets not be hypocritical.

Iran is extremely rich in natural resources like petroleum and natural gas as well as many minerals. Im sure the carpetbagger's would love unfettered access to al that, especially at low low prices

Or perhaps you need reminding about Operation Condor, which is probably the prime reason South America is in the turmoil it is currently in.

Apparently defending or dismissing that which is happening now in Iran by reference to historical British abuses which have now fortunately largely been eradicated is not remotely convincing.

I also fail to understand how Iran's oil and other wealth justifies their behaviours. The reverse should be the case in that they can afford more enlightened government unaffected by economic and financial constraints.

They are a pariah state with little regard for any rights that most western democracies regard as fundamentally human, and endorse genocide by by proxy through Hamas etc.

 

[TRITON]

I also fail to understand how Iran's oil and other wealth justifies their behaviours.

The Coup in Iran was the CIA's first successful coup operation. Mosaddegh was removed from power and Iran's oil shares were split amongst the British, French, and United States for a 25-year agreement in which Iran would earn 50% of the oil profits

How remarkably nice of them to allow Iran 50% of its own oil revenues.

Before it's removal from power, his administration introduced a range of social and political measures such as social security, land reforms and higher taxes including the introduction of taxation on the rent of land. His government's most significant policy was the nationalisation of the Iranian oil industry, which had been built by the British on Persian lands since 1913 through the Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC/AIOC), later known as British Petroleum (BP)

Cant have that. Iran and social policies. Sounds like radical leftism to me

In fact, not too dissimilar to how it went in Libya

They are a pariah state with little regard for any rights that most western democracies regard as fundamentally human

And you know this from personal experience obviously. You've extensively traveled as I have. You've seen the middle east, the Indian sub continent, and Europe including Eastern Europe of the former Soviet states.

Or do you just listen and believe what right wing western media tells you to believe.

What I've found mostly across the world is people are people. They share the same hopes and dreams and are offended by pretty much the same thing.
And they certainly do not want people coming in and telling them how to live their lives.

I tried to point out to you that in the UK and western democracies that our history is littered with instances of oppression and brutality, and that over time we developed. But you seem to have it in your head that you know what is best and everyone should follow your ideal of what a country should or should not be.

You need to get over everything must revolve around Western needs

 

[woodieallen]

Apparently defending or dismissing that which is happening now in Iran by reference to historical British abuses which have now fortunately largely been eradicated is not remotely convincing.

I also fail to understand how Iran's oil and other wealth justifies their behaviours. The reverse should be the case in that they can afford more enlightened government unaffected by economic and financial constraints.

They are a pariah state with little regard for any rights that most western democracies regard as fundamentally human, and endorse genocide by by proxy through Hamas etc.

Eloquently put, Terry. Anyone reading these reports and failing to appreciate why Iran’s nuclear research facilities should be destroyed ASAP is deluding themselves.

https://www.iranwatch.org/weapon-programs/nuclear

 

[TRITON]

Eloquently put, Terry. Anyone reading these reports and failing to appreciate why Iran’s nuclear research facilities should be destroyed ASAP is deluding themselves.

https://www.iranwatch.org/weapon-programs/nuclear

So you have a support Ukraine user tag, and are yet proposing mass destruction on a country because they are fighting against another country that is committing genocide by ethnic cleansing.

"Iran watch dot org. aka the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control"
Based not in Wisconsin, but in Washington DC and at about 600m from the White House. and nearer to Lafayette square and about a kilometer from congress.

 

[Scruples]

There are as many jews in the US as there are in Israel.

That the US would leave Israel to its fate seems unlikely - the Jewish population have serious influence, irrespective of the rights or wrongs of support.

Hamas and Hezbollah are unambiguously set on genocide. The use of human shields as a cover for military activity is unequivocally a crime under international law. I would not suggest that all the Israelis do is above reproach!

I doubt that Netanyahu will have real regard for that which the US may want (Trump or Biden). He will continue to pursue his current strategy - whatever it is.

My guess - he wants the international community to resolve permanently the running sores of the last 75 years - an Israel living securely in clearly defined borders without threat from its neighbours.

He will continue to expand the conflict until the international community feels obligated to do more than just bleat (empty words) about a ceasefire and return of hostages.

• the US, Europe and most middle east states do not want conflict in the region
• Russia and N. Korea may be happy to see it escalate - but in reality have little capability in the area and would do so out of malicious intent.
• China would be concerned that negative actions on their part could rock relatively stable existing international and economic relationships.

The question - what will Netanyahu target as a response to the missile attack. Oil wells would risk alienating even committed supporters of Israel through economic disruption, and negate any limited benefit through sanctions on Russia.

I therefore expect his response to focus on Iranian nuclear capability - this neutralises a real potential threat. It does little damage to the rest of the international community who may even quietly support the removal a a further potential nuclear threat.

I would say that it's because there are more Jews in the US than Israel that the US supports Israel. The financial clout and influencial pressure means that no government would argue. However, we all know that if the Middle East continues its tribal/religious bickering, the West remains safer.

Israel know they have the backing of the US and the UK and will use that backing to commit genocide in any surrounding state that fights them.
We all know that the Jews have been stealing land beyond their borders and killing the Palestianians, none of which seems to concern the western world or, indeed, its press.
I have no truck with any of the Middle Eastern states but I see a tribe that has been 'blessed', by the US and the UK, with more power than it can handle without abuse.
The world will move on.

 

[woodieallen]

......

Israel know they have the backing of the US and the UK and will use that backing to commit genocide in any surrounding state that fights them.
.....

Please stop posting these anti-Semitic comments. If Hamas, Hezbollah etc did not place their military in the middle of cities, underneath hospitals, underneath houses etc then Israel would have no need to attack there. If Hamas, Hezbollah et al stopped firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel then there would be no need for Israel to respond in kind.

Resolving Israeli land-grab is for the UN. Not to be resolved by indiscriminate rocket-firing and the odd butchering, maiming and raping of over a 1000 people whenever it takes Hamas's fancy.

Or would you prefer to sit back and let Israel get destroyed ? I rather get the sense that you do. If so then shame on you.

 

[TRITON]

Please stop posting these anti-Semitic comments. If Hamas, Hezbollah etc did not place their military in the middle of cities, underneath hospitals, underneath houses etc then Israel would have no need to attack there. If Hamas, Hezbollah et al stopped firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel then there would be no need for Israel to respond in kind.

Resolving Israeli land-grab is for the UN. Not to be resolved by indiscriminate rocket-firing and the odd butchering, maiming and raping of over a 1000 people whenever it takes Hamas's fancy.

Or would you prefer to sit back and let Israel get destroyed ? I rather get the sense that you do. If so then shame on you.

Criticism of the israeli state is not antisemitic. That is the first point.

Secondary, the attack by Hamas on israel was a retaliation for decades of oppression, and the vast majority of the victims were soldiers, as in israel the military are embedded into the population.

Thirdly. Hamas, Hezbollah have fired a lot of missiles, but the vast majority, by which I expect 99% have caused no casualties, whereas israel is indiscriminately putting top drawer missiles into family homes killing and maiming tens of thousands of completely innocent people.

A way to quantify that is . Do you live an a terraced house, a multi-story flat etc ?. So in other words you have neighbours.
Do you know what all of your immediate neighbours do ?. Maybe as a job you know one or two, but not everyone.
But say for example one of your neighbours had an affiliation with a banned group.
Do you think the government, would be justified to bombing the entire housing area, killing not only that neighbour and his family, but also your entire family and the families of your other neighbours.

Because that is exactly what israel is doing. You are not only arguing for that concept, but blaming the deaths of the innocent neighbours on those neighbours themselves.

 

[woodieallen]

Did somebody say something ?

Don't you just love the Ignore option

 

[Chris152]

If Hamas, Hezbollah etc did not place their military in the middle of cities, underneath hospitals, underneath houses etc then Israel would have no need to attack there.

It may be worth remembering that those people don't have the kind of military infrastructure that their opposition(s) have. Military bases, defence systems and so on. They can hardly stand in the middle of an empty field and undertake their resistance/ offensive from there, waiting to be hit by their enemies. That'd be stupid. So they seem to do what they can with their limited resources. And it's a decision by their enemy to attack them wherever they are, regardless of the human cost in doing so, and regardless of international law. None of this is 'right', it's just a tragic mess.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

...at this moment in time, I really wish Trump was PM because, I think amazingly he's right. Israel will retaliate against Iran....and please don't all go off on Israel this, Israel that blah blah blah...they will. Accept it. It's going to happen/

So what would you they rather did? You have two choices ...the first is to take out as much as they can ...with US help, which is where Trump would come in as opposed to that lily-livered Biden ...of Iran's nuclear aspirations because, believe me, that is their declared aim. No if's...no but's. They want to destroy not only Israel but the West.

The second is to take out their oil refineries etc which will push up the price of oil, screw up the economies of large swathes of the world...

In my mind, it is a no-brainer since we know that the Israeli's will do something. Much, much better to take out their nuclear bomb aspirations. But Biden won't support this. Trump would.

It does not matter who is president - Israel, under Netanyahu, will do what they intend to do, not what they are told to do. They were told to withdraw from Lebanon in the last war, and see where that got them. The whole point of the wars in Gaza and Lebanon is to destroy the proxies of Iran, and then to remove the capability of Iran to continue in the future as a threat to the existance of Israel. Remember, Israel are not fighting for territory, they are fighting to exist. They did not start these wars, but they will now finish them. There can be no cease fire until this occurs, no opportunity for the opposing armed forces to regroup and continue fighting. To end Iran as a threat, their nuclear capability must end. It is as "simple" as that ... has bugga all to do with who is president and world opinion.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Yojevol]

This evening I watched Any Questions from Pensylvania, yes, with our own Fiona in the chair. Quite enlightening with a lot of diverse opinions from panel and audience.
It made me realise that many of us non-Americans see Trump as a a frightening prospect on the world stage. However an awful lot of Americans are only interested in domestic matters, eg, immigration and economy, and percieve that a Trump administration will improve their personal situations. There seems to be little acknowledgement that the rest of the western world is in the same dire straits. The perception is that they were better off under Trump.than Biden, therefore Biden is the cause of their woes.
Many find Trump as obnoxious as I do but are prepared to accept him as the front man of the administration, not realising that he could reek chaos on the world scene, which would affect their lives indirectly in the medium/long term.
Have a look at QT on l-Player, it's worth an hour of your time.
Brian

 

[TRITON]

Did somebody say something ?

Don't you just love the Ignore option

It's ok, I completely understand that you're afraid of answering.

 

[spanner48]

Please stop posting these anti-Semitic comments. If Hamas, Hezbollah etc did not place their military in the middle of cities, underneath hospitals, underneath houses etc then Israel would have no need to attack there. If Hamas, Hezbollah et al stopped firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel then there would be no need for Israel to respond in kind.

Resolving Israeli land-grab is for the UN. Not to be resolved by indiscriminate rocket-firing and the odd butchering, maiming and raping of over a 1000 people whenever it takes Hamas's fancy.

Or would you prefer to sit back and let Israel get destroyed ? I rather get the sense that you do. If so then shame on you.

"anti-Semitic" ? NO; anti-Zionist.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Thirdly. Hamas, Hezbollah have fired a lot of missiles, but the vast majority, by which I expect 99% have caused no casualties, whereas israel is indiscriminately putting top drawer missiles into family homes killing and maiming tens of thousands of completely innocent people.

By implication, Israel and the IDF have no right to retaliate since Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran's missiles have done little damage. Do you really mean this? Should Israel wait until a few ballistic missiles take out an Israeli city and their inhabitants before Israel can take action? Perhaps using human shields should be respected. Do you mean that?

Regards from Perth

Derek