I bought some ECE tools from Germany

[Cheshirechappie]

Not sure that moist air would be much of a problem given modern glues. Back in the day when all they had for glue was boiled Dobbin, the sort of fancy mechanical joints you see between body and boxing of moulding planes made a lot of sense. Especially in unheated UK workshops!

Lignum (whether Argentine or the "real thing") is fairly oily and problematic to glue.

Have you had a problem with your bottom falling off, then?

 

[Bodgers]

Not sure that moist air would be much of a problem given modern glues. Back in the day when all they had for glue was boiled Dobbin, the sort of fancy mechanical joints you see between body and boxing of moulding planes made a lot of sense. Especially in unheated UK workshops!

Lignum (whether Argentine or the "real thing") is fairly oily and problematic to glue.

Have you had a problem with your bottom falling off, then?

LOL

 

[patrickjchase]

Delayed reply, but...

I couldn't get past the pain in the rear end primus iron holding device coupled with a mediocre chip-prone iron compared to decent quality stanley wares.

Their irons are indeed a bit chippy. I found mine to be fine for a jointer because it stabilizes in an acceptable state for that use (i.e. it chips a bit to start and then settles in), but I wouldn't be happy with it in a smoother.

With that said the wedged ECEs will accept basically any reasonable iron with a Stanley-style slotted cap iron. It isn't like, say, an LN where you have to do a bit of metal working to use a thinner non-A2 iron.

 

[D_W]

I should clarify before people read into the iron being unusable - it's certainly fine. I just didn't find it to be up to *their* boast. I found it a lot more in line with Brent Beach's wear photos (not long wearing, and not even wearing - but few people are finishing off the plane that I'm aware of, so the small chipping is probably not a big deal).

I'd have replaced my plane with a wedged version, but I found two nice vintage continental smoothers around the same time for about $20, and already have a rosewood muji.

 

[Bodgers]

How do you mean chippy? Like brittle and prone to chip?


So, I've had a chance to try both the planes. Rather than do what a lot of people do (who seem to know what they are doing) and sharpen/hone straight out of the box, I basically just used them straight out the box.


I tried the jointer first as I have just laminated together some redwood pine for a top on my XCarve stand to server as a sort of assembly table.


Top has recently been glued, I removed all the dry squeeze out and it just needed a a few of the high spots between the laminated joins flattening. After getting the blade height set, I started planing...


This thing is a beast, I've never handled a plane this size before, and I actually had move the whole top into the middle of the workshop as to take full length passes across the top needed a lot of space. For the most part it did its job - the top was flat. There were some issues with some tear out as my laminations had opposing grain directions in places and I couldn't always get the run both ways. I also ended up with some significant plane tracks - I think this is a result of me not getting the alignment quite right in the mouth and the blade having zero camber straight out the box. I like it - though, it has a lot of weight in it.


I then moved on to the Secondus Jack (and/or smoothing plane). Again, no honing or adjusting of the chip breaker, out of the box I hit a strip of poplar about 3 cm wide. Wow. This thing is amazing. As I said previously, my main experience with planes is the ECE block (My SW Stanley LA Jack is still in its box) but this thing just strips off incredibly thin smooth shavings effortlessly. The surface it leaves is incredible. I don't see any way you could do better with fine sand paper. It is like glass, and glistens in the light. It would be interesting to see what a Veritas blade would do in it - if one could be made to fit?


After this I decided to sharpen and hone the Jointer. I took the blade out, and my first observation what just how rough the end of the chip breaker was - it was sort of more roughly ground than the rest of it. As I looked across its width, holding it against the blade, I could see the edge wasn't completely even. It also had what a appeared to be some kind of burr turned up in the opposite direction to the angle in which the chip breaker touches the blade.

I have no idea what I'm doing with it, but I decided it must have to be cleaner and more level, so I hit the end of it with a 600 grit diamond stone. On doing this the burr just dropped off - quite a decent bit of metal string. Strange - or maybe not? I basically just cleaned it up with only the 600 stone and ground it in the same direction the previous burr was going. I sharpened the main blade briefly going from 600 and then to 1200 and then some honing with a piece of leather and some Autosol.


I set the chip breaker as close as I could get it, whilst still having the end of the blade visible. Back in the plane, I initially got quite a deep shaving that sort of accordianed up - obviously a result of having the chip breaker so close. So I raised the blade a little and I was getting great ultra thin shavings effortlessly - so I now have the world's largest smoother


What's the deal with the chip breaker then? What are they supposed to look like on the tip?

 

[patrickjchase]

How do you mean chippy? Like brittle and prone to chip?

Yes, though ECE's irons are fairly "chewy" and not terribly brittle overall. Usually when this happens it means that the steel contains some large-ish carbides, that become exposed upon honing and fall out in use leaving chips. Without knowing what steel ECE are actually using I can't say more than that with any confidence ("Cr-V" is pretty meaningless as it encompasses a huge subset of tool-steel alloys).

After this I decided to sharpen and hone the Jointer. I took the blade out, and my first observation what just how rough the end of the chip breaker was - it was sort of more roughly ground than the rest of it. As I looked across its width, holding it against the blade, I could see the edge wasn't completely even. It also had what a appeared to be some kind of burr turned up in the opposite direction to the angle in which the chip breaker touches the blade.

Yeah, I also recall that cap iron as having been pretty ratty as-shipped.

What's the deal with the chip breaker then? What are they supposed to look like on the tip?

I don't know about "supposed to" but I can tell you how I set mine up. IIRC I ground a 40 degree face about 1/16" high into the leading edge, then ground a 50 degree face about 1/32" high within that, then finally a 60 degree face about 1/64" high at the very tip. I then polished the face smooth freehand on a 5K or 6K stone, rocking the cap-iron to blend the different-angle facets into a continuous curve. I was careful not to remove too much of the 60 degree facet, though, as i wanted to keep that angle for at least the first 1/100" or so (which is where all of the action happens when close-set).

IIRC I also reworked the bottom of the cap iron edge where it interfaces to the iron. The goal there is to get it smooth, flat, and undercut.

EDIT: I would pay close attention to D_W's reply to this post, if any. He's one of the established experts at cap iron configuration, so it will be interesting to see what he says. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately for those with thin skins) Warren Mickley doesn't post here. I know that he's said that he goes as high as ~80 deg at the very tip, though I don't know how far up the cap iron face he takes that.

 

[Bodgers]

Good info - thanks.

Noted on D_W, I have subscribed to his YouTube channel.

I now have an unreasonable need to buy a washita stone

 

[D_W]

Mild curve on the cap iron (not camber, though if nicholson says you can do that, too, you can, but I'd wait and get the thing functioning first).

Curve sort of like the roll that paul sellers does sharpening.

The angle at the point of contact with the iron should be 50-60 degrees, and no stringy mild steel bits, polish the end if you need to and work the undercut on the cap iron as you would anything else. I think cap irons are a tremendous pain in the ass to get polished with no wire edge, so I roll them on a strop with autosol to finish them.

If this plane you're talking about has an adjustable mouth, give yourself a little bit wider set (if we're talking about the jointer, a sixteenth of an inch should do it). As I recall (no longer have an ECE plane), the cap iron is a very springy tall thing, relatively cheaply made compared to the old english cap irons. Tall springy cap irons like that can create a restriction at the mouth.

 

[D_W]

"Chippy" - any iron that doesn't leave a nice smooth uniform finish when it dulls. The ECE irons either release carbides or bits of the edge one way or another pretty early on. They're not overhard chippy (as Patrick said), they just don't hold a uniform edge.

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/bladetest.html

Note the look of the edges on this page. the tsunesaburo edge is black with nothing relfecting back. It's uniform. Then take a look at the ECE edge and the A2 and D2 edges - the sparkles are small notches. They leave a trail of lines on a surface, just little ones, but they're there.

 

[patrickjchase]

I agree 100% with what David wrote, but feel obliged to throw out one caveat: While the pictures he linked on Brent Beach's site show exactly what he and I were describing, one needs to exercise caution with most other content on that site. Some of the conclusions Brent draws from that blade test are "questionable", and some of his conclusions elsewhere (most notably about honing compounds) are just plain wacky.

 

[Bodgers]

Interesting test. I see the ECE blade is by no means the worst, almost middle of the pack in that result. Seems to rate better than A2 from Lee Valley. Not sure if things are any different now, since this was published.

 

[D_W]

Yes, not the worst, of course. Not intended to suggest that it's by any means unusable, either. They don't have the edge life of a2 , though.

Some chippiness can be avoided by making sure the final bevel is at least 34 degrees.

The other implication is that chippiness yields some edge thickness. If you think of the wearing edge as a triangle, a chip is like removing a part at the triangle, whereas the wear on the tsunesaburo is more like slowly shaving the sides of the triangle. The latter feels sharper for obvious reasons.

Beach is obsessed with wear bevel length, but that's only half of the equation.

 

[Bodgers]

Yes, not the worst, of course. Not intended to suggest that it's by any means unusable, either. They don't have the edge life of a2 , though.

Some chippiness can be avoided by making sure the final bevel is at least 34 degrees.

The other implication is that chippiness yields some edge thickness. If you think of the wearing edge as a triangle, a chip is like removing a part at the triangle, whereas the wear on the tsunesaburo is more like slowly shaving the sides of the triangle. The latter feels sharper for obvious reasons.

Beach is obsessed with wear bevel length, but that's only half of the equation.

I might give the 34 degrees a try.


I have relatives bringing me back either a shooting plane or something else nice in a couple of months, so I would just add a PMV11 Veritas Stanley fit blade to the order, but I'm not sure the thickness would work or the extra gap on slots (to allow the large chip breaker screws through without removing them) would be an issue...



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[patrickjchase]

Interesting test. I see the ECE blade is by no means the worst, almost middle of the pack in that result. Seems to rate better than A2 from Lee Valley. Not sure if things are any different now, since this was published.

The problem with that "test" is that the metric (wear bevel size) is completely meaningless. As woodworkers we care how the iron cuts and what sort of finish it leaves. Wear bevel size is at best a weak predictor of the former inasmuch as it correlates to when the blade will stop cutting due to loss of clearance, and tells us nothing at all about surface quality. As a result that test strongly favors highly abrasion-resistant irons even if they chip like crazy and leave tracks all over the workpiece. Beach's highest "ranking" irons are generally ones that I wouldn't let within a mile of any of my smoothers.

That's why I added the cautionary post yesterday - I've seen far too many people go down the "Brent Beach rathole" over the years. Look at the pretty pictures and draw your own conclusions if you want, but ignore the rest.

I would NOT rate the ECE iron as "better than" A2 from either LN or LV (which are of similar quality IMO). Such A2 irons are also a bit chippy compared to HCS/O1, but not as much so as ECE's mystery Cr-V alloy.

EDIT: Fixed missing negative modifier. It sort of changes the meaning.

 

[D_W]

I'd use it for a while first. I have probably embedded this comment a couple of times in the comments about the shortcomings of the iron. They're not really shortcomings as far as a usable tool goes, they're shortcomings because their discussion of the iron in ad copy would suggest that it's as tough as M4 high speed steel. At the time that they touted the toughness of the irons, lots of makers were claiming things that didn't really hold water, and though the iron is no japanese masterpiece, it's still decent. I don't think anyone would've said anything about it if they'd have just excluded it from the discussion. Calling something the greatest thing since sliced bread (not literally, but you know what I mean) and then not delivering is something that draws a little heat.

I wouldn't spend the money on another iron, though, until or unless you've confirmed that you need to.

Boasting of iron and chisel edge holding magic is one of those things that just about everyone has engaged in.

 

[Bodgers]

I'd use it for a while first. I have probably embedded this comment a couple of times in the comments about the shortcomings of the iron. They're not really shortcomings as far as a usable tool goes, they're shortcomings because their discussion of the iron in ad copy would suggest that it's as tough as M4 high speed steel. At the time that they touted the toughness of the irons, lots of makers were claiming things that didn't really hold water, and though the iron is no japanese masterpiece, it's still decent. I don't think anyone would've said anything about it if they'd have just excluded it from the discussion. Calling something the greatest thing since sliced bread (not literally, but you know what I mean) and then not delivering is something that draws a little heat.

I wouldn't spend the money on another iron, though, until or unless you've confirmed that you need to.

Boasting of iron and chisel edge holding magic is one of those things that just about everyone has engaged in.

The 'instructions' that come with the ECE jointer are mildly amusing. After boasting of the edge retention abilities, it then compares the blade height adjuster to the rack and pinion steering of a highly responsive sports car...

I think I will use it for a while. I suppose there is just that 'what if' thing of a thicker blade with a potentially better edge.


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[D_W]

Thanks for passing the information along about the edge retention I guess it's a habit that they just can't break.

The original IBC irons that came from Woodcraft had an anonymized comment about holding an edge longer than other irons - made by a "professional woodworker".

I'm pretty sure the statement was just made by Rob Cosman.

I found them to be decent irons but not quite as good as the LN's I had on hand at the time. The difference between the two could've easily been explained by general variation in A2 irons from one to the next (as in, there wasn't much difference, even though I actually counted strokes and found the LN to be a little bit less chippy. I'd have to do 20 of each over a period of time to come to any solid conclusion, but the cursory glance suggested that the anonymous comment from a "professional woodworker" was very likely fluff).

I haven't seen a good in-depth discussion that encompasses why I like carbon steel for most things, but the pictures on Beach's website tell half of it, and I'm sure I've blurted out the other half a million times - it relates to the thickness of an edge. That being, if you see those sparkly bits, the actual thickness for a length of wear (Beach is obsessed with wear bevel length) will be thicker as it's introduced to the wood vs. an edge that doesn't have those sparkly bits. Beach seems surprised when he talks about how well the japanese iron cuts despite the length of the wear bevel, but he has probably not thought that much about the thickness of the edge. I borrow that from the knife people who talk about simple steels cutting better in light duty slicing tasks, despite the bevel itself wearing faster in its length than it would if it was a whiz bang modern steel.

I have never counted strokes again to quantify this, though, because the property of the cutting during those strokes is fairly important if you actually want to use an iron into its dullness cycle.

You'll often find people who work only with hand tools (Warren Mickley and Brian Holcombe come to mind, though Brian is now switching to power tools for some things) professionally preferring carbon steel. It's more predictable and even through dulling. And if you're working with a brisk enough cut, it'll still outlast your stamina between sharpenings.

All that said, I'd still pretend I never read any of this, or any of the ECE fluff about how great their iron is, and see how it works. If it chips a bit, work up until you get to a 35 degree final bevel angle. if it still chips at that, it's a cowpat (A2 holds together much better at higher angles, as do all steels that go up from there in terms of alloying - the bigger the carbides, the more they benefit from a blunt angle. Cliff stamp referred to 50 degrees with knives as being the point where the ultra high carbide blades will better simpler steels).

 

[patrickjchase]

The 'instructions' that come with the ECE jointer are mildly amusing. After boasting of the edge retention abilities, it then compares the blade height adjuster to the rack and pinion steering of a highly responsive sports car...

I think the more apt automotive metaphor for the Primus adjuster would be the front-end design of the VW A4/Passat with its 8 control arms and 10 ball joints. They're both complex and finicky to maintain, but some people (masochists, I think) like them.

 

[D_W]

Having owned two VWs in the past (learning my lesson on the first one and then marrying into the second), at least the primus plane doesn't usually generate repair bills just by existing.

I'm sure I could take interest in English cars and find something where the engineers hate mechanics more than they do at VW, but I hope to never see such a thing.

 

[patrickjchase]

Having owned two VWs in the past (learning my lesson on the first one and then marrying into the second), at least the primus plane doesn't usually generate repair bills just by existing.

Way off on a tangent now, but I've seen VW designs over the years that make me wonder (as a former ME) if perhaps they were conducting diesel exhaust experiments on the engineers alongside the other primates that we already know about.