How would you rate the UK's handling of this pandemic?

[Jelly]

I like that. What should we do?

I'd like to think I do my bit especially for local community, however I have a business and would like to still have a business in a year. I'd also like to keep some of my life savings, not all but some of it. I'd also like to keep my guys jobs going.

I think the horrible truth is that right now there are no good answers, and the best any of us can really do is chase after the nebulous and elusive "Least Bad Option" wherever we find it.

It's mildly depressing, when I read it back put it like that.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Where have I advocated people break the law? Please do find it.

Is there a prize for finding it?

 

[Jelly]

Is there a prize for finding it?

Yes.

You've won a slight reduction in your faith in humanity!

 

[Rorschach]

Is there a prize for finding it?

View attachment 100954

That's why the mods said the post was deleted, I was asking a questions about legislation but I can't recall the wording, long time ago now.

 

[doctor Bob]

I think the horrible truth is that right now there are no good answers, and the best any of us can really do is chase after the nebulous and elusive "Least Bad Option" wherever we find it.

It's mildly depressing, when I read it back put it like that.

That's a little bit wishy washy in comparison to your previous post.

 

[Jelly]

That's a little bit wishy washy in comparison to your previous post.

When we're talking about population level trends it's fairly easy to identify what a better or worse approach would be...

When it comes down to an individual level, and especially when a business is involved it's much greyer because so much is shaped by circumstances.

If I was an anthropologist with a background in comparative studies of East-Asian and British culture I might have a better grasp of the fine details of what has made some cultures more resilient, and how we could make small changes to our social attitudes to our collective mutual benefit... But I'm very much a numbers guy unfortunately.



For what it's worth:

From a personal perspective I've been scrupulously avoiding unnecessary situations which involve close contact with others and minimising social contacts (which has been tough as I live alone), even when the government gave us more leeway in the summer, and ensuring when I am out in public that I give others space and following good hygiene protocols (after years working in environments with acute toxins, good hygiene practices are quite natural to me now). I've also made a conscious effort to use small and local businesses as much as possible when purchasing things and convinced others around me to do the same, that's not much but it's the best thing I can do if I want to see those businesses survive so I can benefit from their services in the future.

By contrast I see people looking for loopholes to justify continuing as they are, flagrantly disregarding the rules when it suits them, and taking any relaxation in restrictions as a green light to just go nuts... That's the minority of people who are screwing the entire nation over right now.



In a business context it's much more difficult, as without a more supportive approach from central government there are operations which are not truly necceary that businesses are forced to continue running in order to avoid failing (and leaving their workforce on the dole).

I'm fortunate that the business I'm in has been somewhat sheltered as we provide essential services, and has a large SHQ team and substantial reserves and resources so it's been very easy for us to both mitigate risk to employees and customers, and maintain the business as a going concern... Many smaller businesses are simply not that fortunate.

 

[billw]

If I was an anthropologist with a background in comparative studies of East-Asian and British culture I might have a better grasp of the fine details of what has made some cultures more resilient, and how we could make small changes to our social attitudes to our collective mutual benefit... But I'm very much a numbers guy unfortunately.

In brief, many societies in Asia have traits such as "collectivism" - the group comes before the individual, you don't argue openly in public for fear of disrupting group harmony. Also they're "face" or "honor" cultures which means how an individual sees themselves is dictated by how others see them so they are careful to act in a way that will not bring shame on themselves or their family.

Those cultures often have other traits such as deference to superiors, expecting to be told what to do rather than arguing about it, and such like.

On the whole it means that instructions to wear a mask, stay home, etc etc are more likely to be obeyed because they're instructions from authorities, and people don't want to be seen as the ones flaunting the rules.

These are generalisations of course, there are still people who don't adhere to them, but far far less than individualistic nations such as the UK and US.

Reasons for not wearing a mask here - "I don't want to", "it's my right not to", "I don't think they work" - generally reasons that centre around what the individual thinks and screw everyone else.

As for changing that - *sucks air through teeth* - probably not going to happen.

 

[billw]

BTW - I should point out this doesn't make one culture "better" than the other.

 

[Noel]

Depends how he died, I imagined he overdosed on crack cocaine and loose women ................... or bored to death by internet warriors.

When we're talking about population level trends it's fairly easy to identify what a better or worse approach would be...

When it comes down to an individual level, and especially when a business is involved it's much greyer because so much is shaped by circumstances.

If I was an anthropologist with a background in comparative studies of East-Asian and British culture I might have a better grasp of the fine details of what has made some cultures more resilient, and how we could make small changes to our social attitudes to our collective mutual benefit... But I'm very much a numbers guy unfortunately.



For what it's worth:

From a personal perspective I've been scrupulously avoiding unnecessary situations which involve close contact with others and minimising social contacts (which has been tough as I live alone), even when the government gave us more leeway in the summer, and ensuring when I am out in public that I give others space and following good hygiene protocols (after years working in environments with acute toxins, good hygiene practices are quite natural to me now). I've also made a conscious effort to use small and local businesses as much as possible when purchasing things and convinced others around me to do the same, that's not much but it's the best thing I can do if I want to see those businesses survive so I can benefit from their services in the future.

By contrast I see people looking for loopholes to justify continuing as they are, flagrantly disregarding the rules when it suits them, and taking any relaxation in restrictions as a green light to just go nuts... That's the minority of people who are screwing the entire nation over right now.



In a business context it's much more difficult, as without a more supportive approach from central government there are operations which are not truly necceary that businesses are forced to continue running in order to avoid failing (and leaving their workforce on the dole).

I'm fortunate that the business I'm in has been somewhat sheltered as we provide essential services, and has a large SHQ team and substantial reserves and resources so it's been very easy for us to both mitigate risk to employees and customers, and maintain the business as a going concern... Many smaller businesses are simply not that fortunate.

On a related theme I think many seem to think that once vaccinated, or half vaccinated, it's hug time and go on holiday with a bunch of strangers time.
And that is not the best thing to do, at least for some time.

 

[doctor Bob]

On a related theme I think many seem to think that once vaccinated, or half vaccinated, it's hug time and go on holiday with a bunch of strangers time.
And that is not the best thing to do, at least for some time.

The issue is how long, do we hole up for 20 years, probably not, is 10 acceptable, 5....... at somepoint people being people will start to say, each for themselves, human nature. I think I have a good moral compass, I think I have compassion to others, I have spent time helping others but we all have a breaking point, am I prepared to hole up for say 10 years, I doubt it.

 

[Misterdog]

I spoke with a relative in Canada yesterday and their government are hoping to get all over seventies vaccinated by late October which is some eight months after the UK so maybe our government are getting that bit right

Though the EU are around 3/4 weeks behind us because all 27 member states had to agree on which vaccines to buy, how much to order, and how much to pay.
By the time they had agreed all that they were at the back of the queue.
(sounds like their Brexit negotiations ? )

Imagine how the Germans feel when the Pfizer vaccine is developed in Germany but the UK rolls it out before them. - not happy.

Of course during the first wave the lets bash BJ mob constantly pointed to Germany as a model of perfection..
And political blinkers prevent the mob for giving any credit.


https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-story-kiel/

 

[Jacob]

Though the EU are around 3/4 weeks behind us because all 27 member states had to agree on which vaccines to buy, how much to order, and how much to pay.
By the time they had agreed all that they were at the back of the queue.
(sounds like their Brexit negotiations ? )

Imagine how the Germans feel when the Pfizer vaccine is developed in Germany but the UK rolls it out before them. - not happy.

Of course during the first wave the lets bash BJ mob constantly pointed to Germany as a model of perfection..
And political blinkers prevent the mob for giving any credit.


https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-story-kiel/

If it really is a success due to brexit then it's the very first one to appear out of the fog. The only one so far! But I expect it's not that simple.

 

[Misterdog]

But I expect it's not that simple.

https://www.google.com/search?q=why...i57j33i160.16013j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[doctor Bob]

If it really is a success due to brexit then it's the very first one to appear out of the fog. The only one so far! But I expect it's not that simple.

have you swallowed a bitter pill?

 

[Misterdog]

 

[Jelly]

If it really is a success due to brexit then it's the very first one to appear out of the fog. The only one so far! But I expect it's not that simple.

It is as you correctly identified, not that simple:

In principle the EU states were free to act individually to approve and order the vaccine faster than the central EU bodies were doing)

However because they normally use a centralised regulatory approval body for medicines, the individual states did not have established procedures or independently functioning bodies for doing so...

Unlike the UK who had always maintained the MHRA and an independent British Pharmacopoeia, thus had that in place to work independently (and much much faster).

That's not actually related to Brexit, and owes more to the close symbiosis of MHRA, NICE, the NHS and Britain's Pharmaceutical Industry; which made maintaining an independent regulator of our own for decades make sense.



I will grant the brexiteers that in one respect it does highlight how clunky EU central bodies can be...

But by the same token it shows how we were often the nation who led the charge in developing EU regulations and standards, because we could show the way, something that British politicians invariably forgot when the regulations we had been instrumental in creating were unpopular or misrepresented at home.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

An extreme covid "solution" is not tenable.

Total lockdown would apparently minimise deaths at a huge cost to the economy. "Apparently" as we are unable to quantify consequential deaths from delayed treatments, mental disease, economic hardship etc.

"Let it rip" would result in a much larger death toll (say 150-500k). The NHS would be completely overwhelmed. Many infected would not be treated - a difficult choice - let die, pump full of drugs, etc.

A compromise solution is needed to minimise the consequences of two equally unattractive outcomes.

Asserting that all lives are valued and must be saved at any cost is simplistic and naive. Using selective statistics on life expectancy is to cynically overestimate the impact.

Placing the needs of the economy above life is the bahaviour of the single minded selfish and self obsessed.

Both are morally bankrupt.

Protect the NHS is a broadly compromise strategy which until the virus mutated had some prospect of working (and may still do (just!)

 

[D_W]

An extreme covid "solution" is not tenable.

Total lockdown would apparently minimise deaths at a huge cost to the economy. "Apparently" as we are unable to quantify consequential deaths from delayed treatments, mental disease, economic hardship etc.

"Let it rip" would result in a much larger death toll (say 150-500k). The NHS would be completely overwhelmed. Many infected would not be treated - a difficult choice - let die, pump full of drugs, etc.

A compromise solution is needed to minimise the consequences of two equally unattractive outcomes.

Asserting that all lives are valued and must be saved at any cost is simplistic and naive. Using selective statistics on life expectancy is to cynically overestimate the impact.

Placing the needs of the economy above life is the bahaviour of the single minded selfish and self obsessed.

Both are morally bankrupt.

Protect the NHS is a broadly compromise strategy which until the virus mutated had some prospect of working (and may still do (just!)

Death rates by age group are a pretty good way to quantify the deaths you're referring to. death rates in general, age adjusted, don't change much year to year without something like covid - generally fluctuating within a range of 0-3%, and more in the middle of that than at the ends. If the numbers are significant, they'll be easy to see.

We're apparently seeing them here - but they are a small fraction of the excess covid deaths.

what we don't see is the financial misery - no easy solution, though.

 

[Petehpkns]

That's why the mods said the post was deleted, I was asking a questions about legislation but I can't recall the wording, long time ago now.

I responded at the time and my post was also deleted as it quoted your statement that you would ignore the requirement on numbers allowed to meet indoors. There was no question about the legislation just your proposed breaking of it.......

 

[RobinBHM]

You can't possibly entertain the idea that there might be a better alternative because

That is precisely your problem.,..you don't like rules imposed by government so you can't entertain the idea there is no better alternative.

That is why you don't look at both sides of the debate.
Unlike me.