How would you rate the UK's handling of this pandemic?

[RobinBHM]

Some people are very annoyed considering they are on the "winning side"

Are you sure?

You are the one debating with ad hominems....a sure sign of somebody angry and lacking counter argument.

 

[Rorschach]

That is precisely your problem.,..you don't like rules imposed by government so you can't entertain the idea there is no better alternative.

That is why you don't look at both sides of the debate.
Unlike me.

I can entertain a better alternative, but because it isn't YOUR alternative, you don't like it

 

[Rorschach]

Are you sure?

You are the one debating with ad hominems....a sure sign of somebody angry and lacking counter argument.

Definitely

 

[doctor Bob]

It is as you correctly identified, not that simple:

In principle the EU states were free to act individually to approve and order the vaccine faster than the central EU bodies were doing)

However because they normally use a centralised regulatory approval body for medicines, the individual states did not have established procedures or independently functioning bodies for doing so...

Unlike the UK who had always maintained the MHRA and an independent British Pharmacopoeia, thus had that in place to work independently (and much much faster).

That's not actually related to Brexit, and owes more to the close symbiosis of MHRA, NICE, the NHS and Britain's Pharmaceutical Industry; which made maintaining an independent regulator of our own for decades make sense.



I will grant the brexiteers that in one respect it does highlight how clunky EU central bodies can be...

But by the same token it shows how we were often the nation who led the charge in developing EU regulations and standards, because we could show the way, something that British politicians invariably forgot when the regulations we had been instrumental in creating were unpopular or misrepresented at home.

 

[doctor Bob]

That is precisely your problem.,..you don't like rules imposed by government so you can't entertain the idea there is no better alternative.

That is why you don't look at both sides of the debate.
Unlike me.

Arrh the old "I'm considerably better than thou arguement".

 

[Lons]

I responded at the time and my post was also deleted as it quoted your statement that you would ignore the requirement on numbers allowed to meet indoors. There was no question about the legislation just your proposed breaking of it.......

So did I, he really is a piece of work!

 

[Rorschach]

I responded at the time and my post was also deleted as it quoted your statement that you would ignore the requirement on numbers allowed to meet indoors. There was no question about the legislation just your proposed breaking of it.......

Do you have a screenshot? I'd like to see the evidence rather than being convicted on a "that's what I thought he said".

 

[doctor Bob]

I really hope this thread hasn'tbecome sad enough that people need to take screen shots of stuff.

 

[NormanB]

Death rates by age group are a pretty good way to quantify the deaths you're referring to. death rates in general, age adjusted, don't change much year to year without something like covid - generally fluctuating within a range of 0-3%, and more in the middle of that than at the ends. If the numbers are significant, they'll be easy to see.

We're apparently seeing them here - but they are a small fraction of the excess covid deaths.

what we don't see is the financial misery - no easy solution, though.

Your theory holds good until health services are overwhelmed a clear and present danger in some parts of the UK. When that happens the collateral damage is actually the non COVID deaths through ‘medical neglect’ and while that is happening the COVID deaths will be increasing by ‘medical neglect’ too - in this context neglect = no capacity to provide clinical intervention.

 

[Droogs]

Really Rorscach, you ask for screenshot evidence to prove you wrong and then like a comment berating you for doing so. do you actually read things?

 

[Rorschach]

Really Rorscach, you ask for screenshot evidence to prove you wrong and then like a comment berating you for doing so. do you actually read things?

Yes I'd love a cup of tea thanks.

 

[Yorkieguy]

Setting aside the interminable pointless Brexit argy bargy, the UK government have been pilloried over its handling of Covid-19 when in reality, there has been widespread disregard for even simple measures such as wearing a mask. Every other person who wears one has it only over their mouth. All the protestations of 'the rules aren't clear' are just lame excuses and every question about 'can I do this or that?' is motivated by a desire to push the boundaries. 'Stay home unless your journey is essential' in unequivocal. Likewise, when told we can 'exercise locally', how hard is that to understand? To my mind, 'local'' means as soon as you set foot out of your front door - it doesn't mean drive ten miles to a beauty spot or a beach along with thousands of like minded individuals.

Some will blame the government for 'lack of enforcement' while other say they're 'living in a police state'. These are just ways to deflect from accepting personal responsibility.

One thing the UK does deserve credit for is the vaccine rollout. My wife and I (both over 80), were vaccinated yesterday. Drove 20 mins to the vaccine centre, arrived 10am for out 10.10 appointment. 100 cars in the car park, lots of free spaces, all very well organised - vaccinated at 10.10 on time, had to sit for 15 mins to make sure all was well, given an appointment for our second jabs, and back home within the hour.

The vaccination hub was at Beverley Racecourse. We could have celebrated by going into Beverley town centre to join the throng of hundreds of others strolling around with no social distancing, masks hanging under the chins, browsing so called 'essential' shops for non-essential items, going into one of several coffee shops for a takeaway coffee, have a sit on a bench. But we didn't - not because we didn't want to, but because we're told not to. Not wanting to sound pompous or self righteous - just saying if everyone had bought into this, many who are no longer with us would still be alive.

Anyway, here we go then - UK has vaccinated more than any EU country by a large measure and deserves praise for that. Sure, there are 'war stories' about people having to wait hours or drive miles to a centre, but the UK has vaccinated more in one day than France has done. In total more than ten times as many, and almost five times the number of vaccinations per 100 people than Germany. (At the present rate of progress, if 50% of the population of France do eventually decide to have the vaccine, it will just under 8 years to administer).

Country​	Number of vaccinations per 100 people​	​	​	Number of vaccinations​	Last updated​
U.K.​	4.94​	​	​	3,356,229​	Jan. 13​

Germany​

1.01​

​

​

842,455​

Jan. 13 ​

France​

0.49

318,216

Jan. 14

So why has it taken so long for France to put the plan into action? It is not as if the authorities did not have time to prepare. And it is certainly not a question of a lack of vaccine. In fact, more than a million Pfizer doses are already in cold storage, waiting to be used.

The primary reason for the delay seems to be the cumbersome, over-centralised nature of France's health bureaucracy. A 45-page dossier of instructions issued by the ministry in Paris had to be read and understood by staff at old people's homes.

Each recipient then had to give informed consent in a consultation with a doctor, held no less than five days before injection. The lengthy procedure is in theory to save lives - those of patients who might have an adverse reaction. But as the critics have been arguing, delay in inoculating the population is also costing lives.

Another problem in France is the high level of scepticism towards vaccination - product of a more general suspicion of government. Polls suggest as many as 58% of the public do not want to be given the ***. The effect - critics say - has been to make the government unduly cautious. When urgency was required, the authorities were reluctant to move fast for fear of galvanising the anti-vaxxers. French TV reported on one care home where just 70 of 250 residents had given their consent. One resident said: “We don’t know what’s in their vaccine.”

The [French] government plans to set up a “citizens’ collective” of 35 people chosen at random to determine how worries about the vaccine can be addressed.

That should speed things up then?

Why Covid-19 vaccine rollout is so slow in France

David.

 

[D_W]

Your theory holds good until health services are overwhelmed a clear and present danger in some parts of the UK. When that happens the collateral damage is actually the non COVID deaths through ‘medical neglect’ and while that is happening the COVID deaths will be increasing by ‘medical neglect’ too - in this context neglect = no capacity to provide clinical intervention.

Curious as to how these other deaths won't show up in the excess mortality totals. If you have covid deaths separated out of the excess and still a lot of excess, you can the figure out then what age groups the deaths are in and find the cause.

There was initially a lot of deferring of elective and other procedures here in the states , but we have so much non icu capacity in the states that hospitals have made a point of not deferring any longer. It was actually a financial threat. The elderly are deferring dental work, though.

 

[doctor Bob]

Yorkie guy has it right.
I took my 87 year old parents last weekend for their ***. Bear in mind it was full of an age group in wheel chairs, mobility scooters, mental confusion, yet it was efficient and exceptionaly sympathetic.

When we get to more mobile age groups we will be even swifter, we are right up there with the top countries.
For once, stop whinging (he who cast the first stone and all that) join the enthusiasm for the vaccine.
I find this defeatest, depressionism draining. I find it sad that peoplecan't accept that we are doing well (just that) but bring in negative issues as to why we are doing well.
I get it but be more rounded, it's like a bandwagon came through and you all felt compulsed to jump aboard.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Identifying collateral damage from covid is plausible where the impact can readily be identified as occuring at a similar time - eg: deaths resulting from heart attacks within (say) 3 days of the initial attack.

It is far more problematic where the impact may be delayed for several months or years - eg: a failure in cancer screening or treatment.

In those cases it may be very difficult to reliably link the consequences of covid induced pressure on NHS with the delayed collateral damage.

 

[Misterdog]

If all the energy spent trying to blame government was directed into helping the fight against this disease, we would all be back to some form of normality sooner.
Though this is just wishful thinking as some see that their role in life is to criticise anything government does.
In the mistaken belief that they are actually making some kind of difference.

Actions/words etc.

 

[Spectric]

Hi all

Unfortunately the buck stops at the top, in a time of national crisis you need strong leadership providing good instruction and the will to enforce. This government has been weak and indecisive so many times that a public enquiry must happen, maybe Borris has long Covid that has changed his mental ability. Imagine if this had been a really serious disease, this country would have been decimated. The one area they continue to get so wrong is failing to shut the gate in time, they tell everyone that next week they will stop travel from country X, so what happens is everyone rushes to beat the deadline and they keep doing it. Why not have detention centres where the police/military detain everyone coming into the country for three weeks and are only released when proven safe, if they had done this in February we would be living a normal life now. In times like this people have to accept that they cannot have normality and it is Ok if you throw say a 100 people to the lions if it saves a 1000 lives, ie treat the blatant rule breakers like looters.

 

[Petehpkns]

Do you have a screenshot? I'd like to see the evidence rather than being convicted on a "that's what I thought he said"

Clearly not, the post and my response were deleted. It doesn’t seem credible that the moderators saw fit to remove the post given you were simply asking a question re “legislation”. Forums welcome posts and is their business model, so why would they discourage ‘questions’......

 

[Jacob]

.......I find it sad that people can't accept that we are doing well .......

It's mainly because we aren't doing well. We are even worse than USA in terms of deaths per capita.

 

[Jameshow]

Hi all

Unfortunately the buck stops at the top, in a time of national crisis you need strong leadership providing good instruction and the will to enforce. This government has been weak and indecisive so many times that a public enquiry must happen, maybe Borris has long Covid that has changed his mental ability. Imagine if this had been a really serious disease, this country would have been decimated. The one area they continue to get so wrong is failing to shut the gate in time, they tell everyone that next week they will stop travel from country X, so what happens is everyone rushes to beat the deadline and they keep doing it. Why not have detention centres where the police/military detain everyone coming into the country for three weeks and are only released when proven safe, if they had done this in February we would be living a normal life now. In times like this people have to accept that they cannot have normality and it is Ok if you throw say a 100 people to the lions if it saves a 1000 lives, ie treat the blatant rule breakers like looters.

Since I am relatively young perhaps you can suggest a politician in the modern era say since Churchill who you are sure could have done a better job???


Cheers James