Hancock's Half Hour

[woodhutt]

"You've got Covid. Where did you say you were yesterday ? On the beach? Right...there's the door, now B... off"

That's what puzzles me about the reaction to Dominic Cummings' transgression and the mob baying for his sacking. Yes, he was wrong so issue him with an infringement and prosecute him.
Either that or call for the sacking of all the other selfish b*****s who were out on the beaches, illegally camping etc. over the weekend. After all, there is only one law for all. Isn't there...?

 

[RogerS]

"You've got Covid. Where did you say you were yesterday ? On the beach? Right...there's the door, now B... off"

That's what puzzles me about the reaction to Dominic Cummings' transgression and the mob baying for his sacking. Yes, he was wrong so issue him with an infringement and prosecute him.
Either that or call for the sacking of all the other selfish b*****s who were out on the beaches, illegally camping etc. over the weekend. After all, there is only one law for all. Isn't there...?

+1

 

[Rorschach]

Cummings didn't break the law though unless a judge decides that. If he feels it was a reasonable excuse to be travelling then it's up to a judge to decide if that is the case. Key workers were given plenty of leeway, would he not be classed as a key worker?

Of course it is a moot point, it's all politically motivated, all the attacks on people who flouted guidelines are politically motivated, snobbery, elitism, all sorts really. Depending on your view of things will depend on who you attack and who you support.

I think he was pretty stupid to get caught and should have been more sensible about what he was doing.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It would have simplified matters if from day one they told us what was advisory and what was actually (to be) law. The police would know where they stand if nothing else.

......................................

... the other selfish b*****s who were out on the beaches, illegally camping etc. over the weekend ...

aren't in the government telling the rest of us not to do it.

 

[Chris152]

It's a big ethical problem, i think. If the argument's 'it's better in the long run to let everyone get it, many die but in the long run more lives are saved' we're in trouble. Hard to argue against of course, utterly pragmatic and logical. But if we explicitly applied that argument more generally, our society would look very grim. Allow those who exhaust our resources to simply die as the resources saved would save more lives. It's been tried historically, even pro-active destruction of those that apparently threaten the well-being of the majority (not that that's what anybody here's suggesting obviously). And to some extent we do that already, but once it becomes explicit policy we've got a problem.

The problem is that we lose something fundamental of our humanity, i think. As a principle, it can lead to truly terrible things. There's no easy answer, but Jonathan Swift captured the problem well in his parody of pragmatism in his A Modest Proposal where he 'suggests that the impoverished Irish might ease their economic troubles by selling their children as food to rich gentlemen and ladies' (lifted from wiki). Over-population and hunger sorted at a stroke.

I don't know the answer but i know for sure I don't like seeing people being misled, which is what I think's happening right now in England.

 

[Rorschach]

It would have simplified matters if from day one they told us what was advisory and what was actually (to be) law. The police would know where they stand if nothing else.

By doing that though there wasn't the ambiguity that made many people voluntarily stay home. When you actually look at how this was handled we have been one of if not the "freeist" lockdowns anywhere in the world. Most people have stayed home not because of a legal compulsion but because they thought they should.

Personally I think that's great, I don't want the government seizing more power and I certainly don't want them giving even more power to the police. Our civil liberties have been mostly preserved unlike countries such as France where they jumped back to the 1940's!

Putting something into law also invoke the scrutiny of MP's and by the time that lot had finished arguing over silly little points this would have all been over. On balance I think they did the right thing, the finger wagging nosey old farts in this country helped them an awful lot.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

"You've got Covid. Where did you say you were yesterday ? On the beach? Right...there's the door, now B... off"

That's what puzzles me about the reaction to Dominic Cummings' transgression and the mob baying for his sacking. Yes, he was wrong so issue him with an infringement and prosecute him.
Either that or call for the sacking of all the other selfish b*****s who were out on the beaches, illegally camping etc. over the weekend. After all, there is only one law for all. Isn't there...?

The thing about cummings-n-goings that winds me up beyond belief is the systematic cynical lying about it - and Boris's complete complicity in that. Doing it was probably wrong, certainly arrogant and stupid, but its the institutionalised dishonesty surrounding the thing that sticks in my craw.

 

[woodhutt]

......................................

... the other selfish b*****s who were out on the beaches, illegally camping etc. over the weekend ...

aren't in the government telling the rest of us not to do it.

Philski.
Is Cummings contributing to the government's Covid 19 response? I understand he is an adviser holding no parliamentary position and his main focus is the Brexit deal and economics in general but I am open to correction. Not sure if he has had any input to, or expressed any views on, the containment measures so poorly implemented in the UK. From what I have read, he may have been guilty of transporting his immediate family 'bubble' to join with another family 'bubble' (parents) without involving other members of the public. This is not the case with the hordes who flocked to the coast and other beauty spots. So my question stands. Why should he be treated any more severely?
Pete

 

[Chris152]

......................................

... the other selfish b*****s who were out on the beaches, illegally camping etc. over the weekend ...

aren't in the government telling the rest of us not to do it.

Philski.
Is Cummings contributing to the government's Covid 19 response? I understand he is an adviser holding no parliamentary position and his main focus is the Brexit deal and economics in general but I am open to correction. Not sure if he has had any input to, or expressed any views on, the containment measures so poorly implemented in the UK. From what I have read, he may have been guilty of transporting his immediate family 'bubble' to join with another family 'bubble' (parents) without involving other members of the public. This is not the case with the hordes who messed to the coast and other beauty spots. So my question stands. Why should he be treated any more severely?
Pete

Apparently so, Cummings invented the slogans - Steve Baker on that very issue:
https://www.facebook.com/BBCPolitics/vi ... 1215676912

 

[Marineboy]

The issue with Cummings is simple. At the time, everyone in government was ramming home the message ‘Stay home, Save lives’ etc. Cummings didn’t stay home. All this guff about protecting his son is irrelevant. If he needed help his sister in law lives round the corner. This is enough in itself to damn him, quite apart from the fact (it must be fact since at least one minister has not denied it) that he went on a 30 mile trip when the message was that people could only exercise locally. Who knows what else will turn up when the police start looking at CCTV, ANPR etc.

He is part of the government and other such people associated with the policy who have transgressed have resigned. For Johnson to defend him is disgraceful. Cummings must have something on him.

 

[woodhutt]

Chris. Sorry but I am not on the Book of Face (won't have it in the house). Can you precis it for me?
Pete

 

[beech1948]

The Civil service is unfit for purpose. It is made up of do nothing fairly useless people who in the past 50 years have relied on the EU for everything and now know nothing. I would fire at least 40% of them and not hire new people. Utter waste of money and time.[/quote]

Your rant attacks the wrong target. Civil servants take instruction from politicians. The policies you don’t like emanate from politicians, civil servants just try to put them into practice - not always easy when these policies are impractical and wrong-headed.[/quote]

Not strictly true looking at that list. Take testing, for example. Testing could have been increased greatly if PHE hadn't insisted in the early days about using only their labs. Of course, they could and should have been told to get their finger out by Hancock....ah....I see where you are coming from :wink: As you were.

Sack Hancock. Now.[/quote]

Your both somewhat wrong. The Civil service is almost a separate part of government from the politicians. IN THEORY the politicos tell the CS what to achieve. IN PRACTICE the CS does many things because it thinks it can get away with it or because thate the way they always did it.

It is naively simplistic to say "Civil servants take instruction from politicians". No politico is smart enough to give a specification of what he/she wants to the CS as they lack experience and knowledge. The CS use this gap in knowledge and experience to channel the ministers responses to suit the CS. It is so blatant and moronic that statements like "Civil servants take instruction from politicians" are taken seriously by an uncritical and mostly unthinking public.

My discussion points were on target and were not a rant. The CS has become stupid and lazy after 50 years of being told what to do by the EU. 80% of all legislation came from the EU and Parliament just had to rubber stamp it with little to no CS intervention.

Its like the current vilification of Mr Cummings by a press set upon calling down the government at every step of the way in howling masses of childlike bullsh**t.

 

[Chris152]

Chris. Sorry but I am not on the Book of Face (won't have it in the house). Can you precis it for me?
Pete

Very wise, Pete.
Here's a shorter interview with someone else so less interesting i think, but has the connection (Cummings breaks own slogans):
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/vi ... o-go-video

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Cummings must have something on him.

I'm sure he knows where several skeletons are buried.

Another point... catching covid is not unlike being hit by a steamroller, unless you're lucky enough to have mild/no symptoms which wasn't the case here, we're given to understand, was he really fit to undertake one or more long road journeys and was he possibly putting other road users at greater risk? The truth is so well obfuscated we may never know.

 

[Marineboy]

The Civil service is unfit for purpose. It is made up of do nothing fairly useless people who in the past 50 years have relied on the EU for everything and now know nothing. I would fire at least 40% of them and not hire new people. Utter waste of money and time.

Your rant attacks the wrong target. Civil servants take instruction from politicians. The policies you don’t like emanate from politicians, civil servants just try to put them into practice - not always easy when these policies are impractical and wrong-headed.[/quote]

Not strictly true looking at that list. Take testing, for example. Testing could have been increased greatly if PHE hadn't insisted in the early days about using only their labs. Of course, they could and should have been told to get their finger out by Hancock....ah....I see where you are coming from :wink: As you were.

Sack Hancock. Now.[/quote]

Your both somewhat wrong. The Civil service is almost a separate part of government from the politicians. IN THEORY the politicos tell the CS what to achieve. IN PRACTICE the CS does many things because it thinks it can get away with it or because thate the way they always did it.

It is naively simplistic to say "Civil servants take instruction from politicians". No politico is smart enough to give a specification of what he/she wants to the CS as they lack experience and knowledge. The CS use this gap in knowledge and experience to channel the ministers responses to suit the CS. It is so blatant and moronic that statements like "Civil servants take instruction from politicians" are taken seriously by an uncritical and mostly unthinking public.

My discussion points were on target and were not a rant. The CS has become stupid and lazy after 50 years of being told what to do by the EU. 80% of all legislation came from the EU and Parliament just had to rubber stamp it with little to no CS intervention.

Its like the current vilification of Mr Cummings by a press set upon calling down the government at every step of the way in howling masses of childlike bullsh**t.[/quote]

So I’m moronic, unthinking and uncritical. Ok. You are clearly a Brexit obsessed little Englander with no evidence to back up your wild conspiracy theories.

 

[beech1948]

So I’m moronic, unthinking and uncritical. Ok. You are clearly a Brexit obsessed little Englander with no evidence to back up your wild conspiracy theories.[/quote]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth that I did not use. Your insults are typical of those who have nothing to say. Go back over the last 4 months and look at what I wrote and there isn't a wild conspiracy theory there at all. Still if the cap fits.

 

[Chris152]

Its like the current vilification of Mr Cummings by a press set upon calling down the government at every step of the way in howling masses of childlike bullsh**t.

Thing is, the press isn't struggling to find important criticisms of both Cummings and the PM in this case. I listened to lunchtime news, apart from the opposition, bishops up and down the country have been very explicit in their criticism of the PM's account yesterday, at least one scientist advising govt has seriously challenged C's actions and Tory backbenchers are becoming very critical.
The knock-on effect is a further loss of trust in government, which at a time like this is a very bad thing.

 

[Marineboy]

.[/quote]Thanks for putting words in my mouth that I did not use. Your insults are typical of those who have nothing to say. Go back over the last 4 months and look at what I wrote and there isn't a wild conspiracy theory there at all. Still if the cap fits.[/quote]

Read your post mate, you put those words in your mouth, not me.

 

[AJB Temple]

In my view the media, who love conflict, have largely whipped up a storm in a tea cup. DC's partner got Covid and in short order he came down with it too. We do not know his family circumstances and I for one will not criticise a man who did his best to keep his young family safe. All this holier than thou stuff from the media and politicians on a bandwagon is so pointless: surely we expect our politicians to focus on stuff that really matters, for example the absolutely massive economic mess we are in.

 

[RogerS]

In my view the media, who love conflict, have largely whipped up a storm in a tea cup. DC's partner got Covid and in short order he came down with it too. We do not know his family circumstances and I for one will not criticise a man who did his best to keep his young family safe. All this holier than thou stuff from the media and politicians on a bandwagon is so pointless: surely we expect our politicians to focus on stuff that really matters, for example the absolutely massive economic mess we are in.

You're ignoring how this has been perceived by Joe Public. If they see that it is one rule for 'them' and another rule for 'us' then it makes a mockery of whatever measures are put in place to try and get us safely through this.