Hancock's Half Hour

[Trainee neophyte]

[
Oh dear oh dear, what a thing to say.

So no one could have seen any of this coming, and it is a complete suprise to everyone? Or should we just not mention anything, because it would be unseemly to make a fuss?

 

[RogerS]

I'm curious, Bob. If you had been PM what would you have done differently ?

In hindsight, sacrificed lives now to save the UK economy, worldwide economic poverty, vast foodbank queues, a whole generation of mass unemployment and as a consequence save more lives later.
USA is already seeing it, furlough is hiding it from us at present.
Of course I may be talking rubbish Roger and the greatest depression ever witnessed may not happen, I sincerely hope so.

No at all, Bob. No-one could accuse you of that.

You raise an interesting moral dilemma. One that has been going on for decades or centuries. What value/price is a human life? Following your 'sacrificed lives' concept...where would you draw the line ? 100,000 dead ? 250,000 ? A million ? But it's not as simple as that. Your mum ? Dad? Wife? Son? Is that a price you're willing to pay for the good of us all. ?

You start scaling things up and you get ramifications beyond the 'simple' death. Large numbers of NHS staff in that number maybe? Surgeons ? Patients in the queue...in pain waiting for that hip operation..on morphine..an operation now delayed ten years hence?

You mention the UK economy and then mention worldwide economic poverty in the same sentence ? That doesn't make sense. How does x hundred thousand dead UK citizens affect one way or the other, the economy of the world ?

Or are you suggesting (as Rorschach seems to imply albeit veiled in his posts) simply letting the old and enfeebled die? I think the Nazis had something going along those lines (incidentally I know you well enough to know that you're not suggesting that but if one didn't know you better, then that would be the logical extension of your line of reasoning).

 

[RogerS]

....
Don't forget that some businesses are lobbying hard to keep the lockdown going: ..

Name one.

 

[Lons]

TN
The more of your posts I read the more I'm convinced you're really Marvin the Martian.

 

[doctor Bob]

Or are you suggesting (as Rorschach seems to imply albeit veiled in his posts) simply letting the old and enfeebled die? I think the Nazis had something going along those lines (incidentally I know you well enough to know that you're not suggesting that but if one didn't know you better, then that would be the logical extension of your line of reasoning).

No that's not what I'm suggesting.
Strange line to take that one and don't know why you got that idea in your head. You mention a line of reasoning, I assure you that is your line of reasoning in your attached quoted post, nothing to do with me at all, strange how people like to bring up Nazi's in these sorts of threads, very very odd.

 

[RogerS]

Or are you suggesting (as Rorschach seems to imply albeit veiled in his posts) simply letting the old and enfeebled die? I think the Nazis had something going along those lines (incidentally I know you well enough to know that you're not suggesting that but if one didn't know you better, then that would be the logical extension of your line of reasoning).

No that's not what I'm suggesting.
Strange line to take that one and don't know why you got that idea in your head. You mention a line of reasoning, I assure you that is your line of reasoning in your attached quoted post, nothing to do with me at all, strange how people like to bring up Nazi's in these sorts of threads, very very odd.

Bit of an over-reaction, there, Robert. I never said that you did..or did you forget to read the last part of the sentence ?

How about the first part of my reply ? Any comments there ?

 

[doctor Bob]

How about the first part of my reply ? Any comments there ?

To be honest Roger, you seem to pick fights with people and I don't want a fight or to look like an internet nutter (see pages 4, 5 and 6 of this thread). So no, no comments. I'm very stressed at present working hard on business survival and the last thing I need is an internet forum arguement.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I personally feel we need to concentrate on getting as many people as possible back to work safely and as quickly possible. There will be different views on safely and common sense has to play a part.

I was interviewed by one of the firms advising the Government on the safe working guidelines as although I moved over 3,000 employees to work from home (the firm have moved over 15,000) within a week of lockdown I have still had all my sites open with a similar number continuing to come into work. We have created a safe working environment - employees and unions are happy - we get the odd issue but managers just sort them quickly. It struck me when being interviewed how difficult it is to cover every eventuality with rules and they wouldn't take "use some common sense" as an answer but that's what we need to do.

To be clear, there are those who need to be shielded and they should continue to stay at home and get the assistance they need. The rest of us can get on with getting things to the new normal while taking sensible precautions though.

Oh - TN - it's not a conspiracy and there isn't a magic money tree!

 

[Trainee neophyte]

....
Don't forget that some businesses are lobbying hard to keep the lockdown going: ..

Name one.

I thought you might like this: http://www.fakingnews.com/india/fearing ... -ncr-31653

More seriously, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... curve.html and https://www.moneyweb.co.za/news/compani ... -lockdown/
https://dailypost.ng/2020/04/24/bill-ga ... -lockdown/

And Bill, being a diamond geezer, doesn't have problems making "gifts", even if it is in nigeria.: https://dailypost.ng/2020/05/04/bill-ga ... p-alleges/

But no, there isn't a press release saying "We, the Dr Evil corporation, are lobbying to keep lockdown in place in order to destroy our competitors and create a limited monopolising position for our Dr Evil™ action figure range. May all the old people DIE!! We demand....one million dollars!" I wonder why not?

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Oh - TN - it's not a conspiracy and there isn't a magic money tree!

Phew! That's such a relief. About the magic money tree - if I want to borrow a screwdriver from my next door neighbour, he actually has to have a screwdriver. If I am the US government and I want to borrow six trillion dollars, not only does the money not need to exist, but it actually can not exist, by definition, until it is borrowed into existence. That isn't magic? It's more like the miracle of transubstantiation, to my mind.

 

[doctor Bob]

- if I want to borrow a screwdriver from my next door neighbour, he actually has to have a screwdriver.

or your neighbour could borrow one from someone else to lend to you, with the promise that you return the screwdriver and an additional £1 back to the neighbour and in due course he returns the screwdriver back to the otherperson along with 50p. You win because you don't have to buy a screwdriver, he wins because he gets 50p and the other person also gets 50p and his screwdriver back.

 

[Blackswanwood]

But no, there isn't a press release saying "We, the Dr Evil corporation, are lobbying to keep lockdown in place in order to destroy our competitors and create a limited monopolising position for our Dr Evil™ action figure range. May all the old people DIE!! We demand....one million dollars!" I wonder why not?

Probably because it's not happening.

 

[Jake]

I think you have seriously under estimated the impact of this recession, the worlds governments have seriously made a monumental balls up of all this. The youth of today will face long term economic devastation. Furloughed employees are generally loving it yet one in 4 is effectively unemployed.
Universities are being destroyed, as are airlines, restraunts, pubs, cinemas, theatres, shops, hospitality etc etc.
People are generally very slow to see a recession, I have spoken to plenty of people who say "it's not affecting me"..... of course it isn't you wally, give it a year.
Guys working from home refusing to come back into the office because WFH is going well and it suits them, they don't understand that now is the time to be sucking up to the boss as he has serious decisions to make.
I don't know of any bosses (reasonable size) who aren't looking to get rid of people and cut costs.
I've started to impliment changes, I reckon I can save £30,000 a year with little impact on my business, trucks have been returned as they were just for vanity, employment costs are being looked at big time, etc.
If you're sitting at home furloughed and loving it, good for you, enjoy the moment.
The fact the chancellor said you are going to see a recession like never before may give you a clue, normally it's said in a gentle manner "there maybe a slight downturn" he didn't pussy cat foot around.
If it lasts a decade I reckon we will have done alright.
As you can see from the above I think the cure has been worse than the disease, my opinion is mine and probably a load of dung and I hope i'm wrong.

Trouble with your logic Bob is you are assuming it would have been better had we ploughed on, which you just don't actually know, though you might understandably like to think so.

The US provides a really interesting (if rather dated) case study from the Spanish Flu, as the degree of economic lockdown varied widely at city level. That was slightly different because the waves were definitely seasonal (no real evidence of that as yet for this), but the data shows that the cities that locked down less, opened earlier, and generally tried to ride it out with more concern for economy and everyday life actually did worse economically as well as in terms of deaths because they got hit so hard as a result. And they are currently re-running the same experiment again over there.

 

[doctor Bob]

As you can see from the above I think the cure has been worse than the disease, my opinion is mine and probably a load of dung and I hope i'm wrong.

Trouble with your logic Bob is you are assuming it would have been better had we ploughed on, which you just don't actually know, though you might understandably like to think so.

Well I think I said my thoughts could be a pile of poo and I hope they are, and of course I don't know, it will all come out in the wash eventually. However hindsight is a great thing and we are where we are.

 

[RogerS]

How about the first part of my reply ? Any comments there ?

To be honest Roger, you seem to pick fights with people and I don't want a fight or to look like an internet nutter (see pages 4, 5 and 6 of this thread). So no, no comments. I'm very stressed at present working hard on business survival and the last thing I need is an internet forum arguement.

Bob, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I was curious and asked you what would you have done if you had been PM. You replied "sacrificed lives now to save the UK economy". That concept opens up a whole can of worms as I postulated in my reply which sought where you would draw the line in terms of number of deaths vs saving the economy. But you got fixated on the last sentence for some reason and didn't look at that sentence in light of the overall context.

If you have the time, I'm still interested to know where you would draw the line re deaths vs economy.

 

[RogerS]

.....

But no, there isn't a press release saying "We, the Dr Evil corporation, are lobbying to keep lockdown in place in order to destroy our competitors and create a limited monopolising position for our Dr Evil™ action figure range. May all the old people DIE!! We demand....one million dollars!" I wonder why not?

Then why do you continue to post such rubbish ?

By the way, I looked at those links you supplied. Ignoring your specious link, none of them had anything that supported your claim that businesses are lobbying hard to maintain the lockdown. Just more BS from you.

No problem...stick you back in lockdown.

 

[doctor Bob]

Bob, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

Trouble is Roger it always ends that way, and I don't want to go down that road thank you.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The US provides a really interesting (if rather dated) case study from the Spanish Flu, as the degree of economic lockdown varied widely at city level. That was slightly different because the waves were definitely seasonal (no real evidence of that as yet for this), but the data shows that the cities that locked down less, opened earlier, and generally tried to ride it out with more concern for economy and everyday life actually did worse economically as well as in terms of deaths because they got hit so hard as a result. And they are currently re-running the same experiment again over there.

Fundamental difference between Covid and Spanish flu - courtesy of Wikipedia:

"The pandemic mostly killed young adults. In 1918–1919, 99% of pandemic influenza deaths in the U.S. occurred in people under 65, and nearly half of deaths were in young adults 20 to 40 years old".

In 1918 the epidemic impacted mainly the productive - this one impacts mainly the retired. No particular axe to grind - merely an observation!

 

[Rorschach]

Not to mention Spanish flu occurred after a world war in which million of young men had already died and in a world with a comparatively archaic medical system.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

The US provides a really interesting (if rather dated) case study from the Spanish Flu, as the degree of economic lockdown varied widely at city level. That was slightly different because the waves were definitely seasonal (no real evidence of that as yet for this), but the data shows that the cities that locked down less, opened earlier, and generally tried to ride it out with more concern for economy and everyday life actually did worse economically as well as in terms of deaths because they got hit so hard as a result. And they are currently re-running the same experiment again over there.

Fundamental difference between Covid and Spanish flu - courtesy of Wikipedia:

"The pandemic mostly killed young adults. In 1918–1919, 99% of pandemic influenza deaths in the U.S. occurred in people under 65, and nearly half of deaths were in young adults 20 to 40 years old".

In 1918 the epidemic impacted mainly the productive - this one impacts mainly the retired. No particular axe to grind - merely an observation!

Of course it was a different virus and a different century but there are lessons that can be drawn when you look at the different approaches taken by different parts of the USA e.g. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/hist ... ronavirus/