First attempt at freehand sharpening!

[pedder]

I can't sharpen a chisel or a plane iron freehand. Because I don't get enough practise. But I don't use jigs for saw sharpening, because I get enough practise there.

It is probably not fair to tell a beginner, freehand sharpening a saw is easy. (I did that on woodnet)

In future I will tell them, they have to decide: using a jig will never let you learn how to sharpen freehand. But if you're sharpen only every few weeks, you probably will never learn how to do it freehand, either. In this case better use all the jigs wich help you.

If a beginner plans to do so much work, that he will have to sharpen every day, than he can take a chance in freehand sharpening (wether a saw or a plane blade). If his time is limited, he might use it to learn freehand woodworking instead of freehand sharpening.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[Jacob]

I can't sharpen a chisel or a plane iron freehand. Because I don't get enough practise. But I don't use jigs for saw sharpening, because I get enough practise there.

Doesn't take long. If you want to do it you just start now and it improves as you go. Put your jigs in a box and never use them again! TBH I do occasionally use one especially on an old tool as it is useful as a "tell tale" to show up the condition.

It is probably not fair to tell a beginner, freehand sharpening a saw is easy. (I did that on woodnet)

Agree saw sharpening not so easy

..... If his time is limited, he might use it to learn freehand woodworking instead of freehand sharpening.

Cheers
Pedder

Freehand sharpening (chisels & planes, and saws too eventually) is quicker and saves a lot of time - that's the whole point, otherwise I wouldn't bother.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Getting to super-sharp freehand does take practice, be it chisels or saws. But getting close to working-sharp really doesn't take long. For chisels and plane irons, I'd say the sharpening associated with a long weekend working wood is enough to get there.
I'm sure if I looked at the edges I produced a couple of days after being shown how, I'd think they were overdue for a good going over. But they worked.

Same with saws. My first attempt wasn't great, but it still cut a lot better than before I had a bash. (Redefining teeth is different - I'm still rubbish at that.)

The "secret" is, if you have a guide, post it to yourself. Then spend the couple of days it'll take to come back home gnawing away at wood. You might not even bother answering the door for the postman.

 

[pedder]

I stand to my point: it is a question of how much time you can or want to invest to learn a peculiar skill.
One may need less time than other, but up to a certain level nearly everyone can learn every skill.
Just a matter of training.

Now I want to see a tango, a self made cake and a painting by Jacob. You can do that. It is easy.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[Jacob]

I stand to my point: it is a question of how much time you can or want to invest to learn a peculiar skill.

To "learn" freehand sharpening takes about half a second. Read this - " Don't use a jig". There, you've learned it, that's all you need to know. Thereafter it's just practice.

...

Now I want to see a tango, a self made cake and a painting by Jacob. You can do that. It is easy.

Cheers
Pedder

Funny you should say that, I've just been tangoing around the kitchen waiting for my cake to be done before I start another painting. Compared to these freehand sharpening a plane blade is a piece of ***s!

 

[Corneel]

Freehand sharpening (chisels & planes, and saws too eventually) is quicker and saves a lot of time - that's the whole point, otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Hmm, I wonder about that timesaving thing. It takes me 15-20 seconds to put the plane iron or chisel in the Eclipse jig, using a stopblock to set the projection. But as soon as the iron is in the jig, it actually saves a bit of time, because there is no searching for the edge, no carefull balancing on the stone and no slipping of fingers on a greasy chisel. In the end I think it doesn't really matter a lot, maybe half an hour in a life time?

At the other hand, i'm starting to get interested in curved blades, gouges and the like. So I'd better hone up my freehand sharpening skills.

 

[Racers]

Hi, Jacob

Yet again you are confusing us amateurs with you professionals, you do woodwork 5 days a week we do a couple at most, so we don’t get to practice sharpening as much as you, And we are on our own, no time served professional to show us how to sharpen.
Where you self taught? Lots of us are or attempting to be, so try to understand where we are coming from and why we ask such (to your mind) stupid questions.


Pete

 

[Jacob]

Hi, Jacob

Yet again you are confusing us amateurs with you professionals, you do woodwork 5 days a week we do a couple at most, so we don’t get to practice sharpening as much as you, And we are on our own, no time served professional to show us how to sharpen.

Question.
Where did everybody pick up these complicated and detailed crazy sharpening procedures?
Answer.
Time served professional merchants of one sort or another, selling gadgets, systems, dvds, courses, magazine articles. All with a vested interest in telling you that it's really difficult and they can sell you the solutions.

Where you self taught? ...

A bit at school, doing it a lot, then a course or two, and a lot of books. They all said the same - double sided oil stone, plus wheel (if available but not essential) ideally large and with water. All the old books say the same (with little variations) and that's how everybody did it.
All this other stuff is quite new - flattening, scary sharp, new jigs, waterstones, snake oil etc.
I fiddled about with jigs (Stanley, then Eclipse) for a long time (seemed a good idea), until I realised it was easier and quicker without - just as I had been told from the beginning.
I've been around the houses in the meantime but basically am back to two double sided oil stones giving me 4 grits, though I don't use the coarser ones much but belt sander instead, recently upgraded to Sorby proedge. Not essential, you can do it all on the stones alone, as have millions of long gone woodworkers from the beginning of woodwork.

 

[pedder]

To "learn" freehand sharpening takes about half a second. Read this - " Don't use a jig". There, you've learned it, that's all you need to know. Thereafter it's just practice.

...

and practice doesn't need time?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[Jacob]

To "learn" freehand sharpening takes about half a second. Read this - " Don't use a jig". There, you've learned it, that's all you need to know. Thereafter it's just practice.

...

and practice doesn't need time?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Practice in the sense of doing it rather than preparing to do it.

 

[LuptonM]

Its about time Jacob that you produced a video so we can all gasp in awe at how little time it takes for you to produce a razor sharp blade. Then maybe you might silence your critics and end this rounded bevel debate.

So Jacob which stones do you exactly use? You can't get a razor sharp blade with just india stones so do you strop?

 

[pedder]

To "learn" freehand sharpening takes about half a second. Read this - " Don't use a jig". There, you've learned it, that's all you need to know. Thereafter it's just practice.

...

and practice doesn't need time?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Practice in the sense of doing it rather than preparing to do it.

For many of us "doing it" is woodworking and not sharpening. So everything else (esp. sharpening) is preparing to do "it".

And now I stop posting in this thread.

Cheers
Pedder - understanding Paul a little better

 

[Jacob]

Its about time Jacob that you produced a video so we can all gasp in awe at how little time it takes for you to produce a razor sharp blade. Then maybe you might silence your critics and end this rounded bevel debate.

So Jacob which stones do you exactly use? You can't get a razor sharp blade with just india stones so do you strop?

See earlier post.
To put the ball in your court - how do you think people managed before crazy sharpening kicked in?
Look at all the work they did.
Look at those Jap planing demos with freehand honed blades.
Look at all those Jap chisels with rounded bevels.
Read any of the old books and see what they say.
Just wake up - you are in a trance!

 

[matthewwh]

For me it's all about control, the less force required to push the blade the more control you have. I can get a workable edge freehand but if I want one that will pare almost effortlessly I use a guide, neither of them take very long and in both cases I quite enjoy the procedure.

I've never understood the rants of freehand purists and tales of enraged foremen throwing apprentices guides out of the window etc. I'm sure that Jacob's intentions are entirely wholesome but they don't square with my experience that you get a sharper edge with a guide.

Why do we not have the same debate about fences or stops or rods or squares or any of the other guesswork eliminating workshop aides?

I was thinking about magnetic dovetail guides this morning and came to the conclusion that they get you to a result quickly and easily, but you miss the flexibility of learning to saw properly freehand - understanding how to use reflections to multiply errors and the importance of setting up so that the cut is plumb for example. With honing guides the opposite is true, you get much more precise control over the situation by using one than not.

At the end of the day it's personal choice - I'm happy to encourage people to try both methods and choose which they prefer. At the end of the day it's your workshop and if you can't please yourself in there you can't do it anywhere.

 

[woodbloke]

Here we go again, the eternal old chestnut :roll: has re-surfaced. I'm with Matt here in that a jig gives more precision and is only slightly slower to use that freehand honing, but the margin isn't great.
As I've said before, as one of the last of the old woodwork teachers (do they exist any more?) I HAD to learn to freehand sharpen very quickly. I reckon I could hone 80 bench chisels or take apart, hone and reset 20 Record No5's in around the time I got in to school and morning prayers...around 45mins. However, the edges were a bit 'Rufus Ruffcut' but were serviceable for school use, but they were not suitable for fine cabinetwork. For that I use (and still do) a jig.

In point of fact, the very best way to freehand sharpen is to get one's technician to do it for you, while you have a brew in the staff room :lol: - Rob

 

[Jacob]

But how did the do it in the old days before jigs, plate glass, flattening, emery paper, Pedder's jig + paving slabs +3 brick system :roll: , ruler tricks, polishing, granite slabs. We all know the crazy sharpening ever expanding lists of goodies!
They've only been deemed necessary in recent years. What has changed?
Mainly the answer is that we have more spare time to fiddle about in.
If under pressure to do woodwork you wouldn't have time for all that nonsense.

Another key thing is the flattening obsession. This follows from the use of jigs - they don't work too well if things aren't perfectly flat. This is where the problems begin IMHO.

 

[bugbear]

Look at those Jap planing demos with freehand honed blades.
Look at all those Jap chisels with rounded bevels.

Normal Japanese practise is a large (due to the thick blade) single bevel. The technique is to use the large flat bevel as a reference when sharpening, so "judging" the angle becomes a non issue.

I am prepared to be convinced otherwise if you provide evidence.

Read any of the old books and see what they say.

They say to avoid round bevels, and use a grinder to remove them if they happen. Extensive quotes available on this.

Sorry to mess up a good internet discussion with evidence.

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

Normal Japanese practise is a large (due to the thick blade) single bevel. The technique is to use the large flat bevel as a reference when sharpening, so "judging" the angle becomes a non issue.


BugBear

BB is correct here, all (or most that I know of) are honed with a very wide single bevel which is easy to reference when it's flat, but it's also then very easy to round the damn thing if the point of ref is lost. Using a jig makes it relatively easy to maintain a wide single bevel, as on all my Jap chisels (25 deg for parers and 30 for them wot's hit) - Rob

 

[studders]

But how did the do it in the old days before jigs.....

They probably travelled by Horse and Cart too but, these days most people would probably opt for something a little more modern.

 

[Jacob]

.....
They say to avoid round bevels, and use a grinder to remove them if they happen. Extensive quotes available on this......

Not correct.
They say to avoid rounding over for the obvious and well known reason that this increases the edge angle.
No mention is made of rounding under i.e. retaining a desired edge angle but having the bevel not necessarily flat. Nor in general is there any particular suggestion that a bevel should be flat.
But in any case, whatever they say, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why a bevel shouldn't be rounded under the edge angle, and if this helps with sharpening so much the better.
As many old tools are found with this feature inc jap chisels it seems that many tool users were aware of this simple bit of common sense and took it for granted without having to have it explained over and over again, as I seem to have to do!