Everyone Vote in Scotland Independance

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StevieB":vwzjdnkf said:
Whether the outcome is yes or no, either way it is going to cost the UK a packet of money - either in the costs of hiving off Scotland if it's a yes, or in increasing the subsidy to Scotland to prevent further dissent if it's a no. The former will take longer and be more uncertain than the latter. On that basis it is a no-win situation as either way our taxes will end up paying for either outcome.

Steve

English won't stand for it either way - Salmond has got the genie out the bottle - it's not going back in - English Regions will want a lot more say and will have more political clout than Scotland.

Newton's Third Law applies every action has a corresponding reaction.

Brian
 
It's difficult at times to work out what is hype and what is fact. The problem I believe is that if the politicians had reacted initially to Mr Salmon, this fact would have been used by the No campaign to give ligitamacy to their claim. I.e the cry would be that Westminster is panicking because we are going to win, by not reacting the Yes campaign has also gained ground by the No campaign not putting forward the debate sufficiently. It's a tricky stage to play for the Wstminster team and only hindsight will determine if they got it right. At the moment they appear to have reacted too slowly.

The other problem I believe is that if that the No campaign had, or indeed does really highlight the plight that both countries may face if the Yes campaign were to succeed, they are likely to switch off the Scottish populous and be branded as reterics under the 'doomed' banner. It would be very easy for Mr Salmon to rebuff as he is at the moment doing any concerns that are raised. Any issues highlight about the aftermath for the rest of the UK would only endear Mr Salmon to his followers. The very poor analogy would be do you tell someone all of the details about both the perceived up side and definite down side of drugs, or do you just highlight that it's a taboo that should not be tried? The fear of most parents is that by giving too much detail only the perceived upside is remember and the downside either not heard of ignored. The basic human instinct is to switch off when hearing about the bad side of anything. So, how much do you tel them?

The plight of the bankers is a good political football that everyone seems to like to kick about. The truth appears to be that our US of A cousins actually created a package of debt that was bought and sold that in reality in simple terms was fraudulent. As clever as we all hope we are, anyone of us can fall foul of what would have been in the UK illegal dealing if we had packaged it up. The UK banks along with the rest of the world banks were drawn into the deals driven by everyone's desire to see profit. Let's not forget that the deals that we now like to 'kick' were the bed rock of most of our private pension funds. The profits were making our retirements look rather rosey. So, the bankers were duped, let them Rot is the cry that is still heard. What would have been the consequences if that had been allowed to happen, well in short anyone who had a debt with a bank that failed would have seen the debt called in. Anyone with savings or a current account would have seen it vanish. The effect of this would have been a complete melt down in property prices, wide scale evictions, and most of us having lost everything we ever worked for. In short Armagedon. This is something we should be very grateful to Mr Brown for stopping and finding a resolution for.

What about bankers bonuses. Well. Let's again look at some facts that get forgotten. The rotten debt caused massive losses, these needed to be rectified by large profits. Simple maths, billions lost = billions needed to plug the hole. Looking at it from a personal level, if we each created a lot of wealth for our employer, would we expect to be rewarded by some form of bonus or extra salary? Hopefully everyone would agree that this is a reasonable expectation, certainly the unions do that I deal with. However, the problem comes with people's expectations. It's very difficult for someone on the average salary which is I believe somewhere near £25K / year to feel that a bonus of £1 million or more is acceptable. Putting it slightly differently, if you were to say to the person in the street, that they have helped their company increase profits for the year by 100%, would they expect a share? And what level of share would they expect? Would 0.1% be acceptable? On average the percentage handed out in to bankers in bonuses is tiny compared to the profits generated - which go to paying off the debts. Seen as a percentage the bonuses would be to anyone laughable, and the unions would be up in arms that the employers were exploring the workforce. Same bonus, different perspective.

So, I would like to suggest that the banks, stock brokers and bankers bonuses are not the evil they are portraid to be, rather they are actually responsible for the largest proportion of the UK's GDP, far larger than the North Sea to put it into perspective.

The very thing that Mr Salmon is arguing against has been a major contributor to the fund that the Scotish parliament is given to support the NHS and other services it controls.
 
deema":1tebst8e said:
The effect of this would have been a complete melt down in property prices, wide scale evictions, and most of us having lost everything we ever worked for. In short Armagedon. This is something we should be very grateful to Mr Brown for stopping and finding a resolution for.

Oh that's a bit rich (no pun intended). As I understand it, it was Browns relaxation of the banking rules during Blairs thatherism style dash for popularity that nigh on bankrupt us.
 
deema":32jvlm6u said:
....
So, I would like to suggest that the banks, stock brokers and bankers bonuses are not the evil they are portraid to be, rather they are actually responsible for the largest proportion of the UK's GDP, far larger than the North Sea to put it into perspective.
.

You're right. 12% of all UK taxes are paid by the finance sector.
 
Can you really se the Jocks and that Salmon guy accepting anything the DVLA says or does?? Let alone sing Land of hope and Glory. Yet we still have "Auld lang syne" Oh Well pity its a great place up there.
 
At the outset I would have liked to see a No vote, but now I can only hope the Yes vote win the day, thanks to idiots in Westminster promising to throw truck-loads of extra cash to Scotland, which the rest of the UK will have to pay for!

If you can, please vote Yes. My wallet thanks you in advance.

Cheers

Edit: Thinking about it, why didn't the rest of the UK get a vote on whether or not we wanted to stump-up even more cash to fund Devo Max. I know what the answer would have been, and it wouldn't have been a few points apart in the polls.
 
RogerS":1o6nsw9x said:
deema":1o6nsw9x said:
....
So, I would like to suggest that the banks, stock brokers and bankers bonuses are not the evil they are portraid to be, rather they are actually responsible for the largest proportion of the UK's GDP, far larger than the North Sea to put it into perspective.
.

You're right. 12% of all UK taxes are paid by the finance sector.
Nonsense. They produce nothing at all. They merely handle money like cashiers. The man behind the till doesn't produce anything. Bankers merely exploit the cash flow which we all need and rake off as much profit as they can. If a cashier did the same he'd be sacked. The banks have been running systematic frauds for many years and having to pay back. That's on top of the overcharging and price fixing for their services.
 
Jacob":3qza460q said:
RogerS":3qza460q said:
deema":3qza460q said:
....
So, I would like to suggest that the banks, stock brokers and bankers bonuses are not the evil they are portraid to be, rather they are actually responsible for the largest proportion of the UK's GDP, far larger than the North Sea to put it into perspective.
.

You're right. 12% of all UK taxes are paid by the finance sector.
Nonsense. They produce nothing at all. They merely handle money like cashiers. The man behind the till doesn't produce anything. Bankers merely exploit the cash flow which we all need and rake off as much profit as they can. If a cashier did the same he'd be sacked. The banks have been running systematic frauds for many years and having to pay back. That's on top of the overcharging and price fixing for their services.

Hello, Citizen Smith has woken up again. Same old...same old. Rubbish, that is.

Why can't you actually read and understand something before shooting from the hip with your usual childish hyperbole.

I repeat. 12% of all UK taxes are paid by the finance sector.
 
I was referring to the implications of previous comment - that the banks "produce". You have to offset the taxes raised against the cost of the various bail outs and the cost of the of the finance sectors massive failures over the last few years - the main cause of the current recession.
 
My suggestion that bankers and not as bad as most people think is not a very polically correct view point I appreciate and may have caused some indignation and I would hate for it to detract from the fundamental issue of whether Scotland should vote yes or no.

The whole issue of the bankers raised its head when I started to look at Ireland which has been highlighted by both Mr Salmon and in one of the posts to this thread as an example of a small country doing well outside the UK. Ireland or Eire has prospered under the EU for many years. It has received very large grants and subsidies to develop its infrastructure from the EU. However, these have almost dried up with the expansion of the EU where newer states have a geater need for economic development. Scotland would not receive any more assistance than it does al ready unless it's economy following a YES vote reduces significantly. Therefore the prosperity Ureland enjoyed would not be repeated by Scotland.

One issue that has I believe has been missed is that Ireland in 2008 when every country was affected by the American created banking crisis is that on its own unlike the UK it was unable to stabilise its banking sector. In fact, Ireland was technically bankrupt. The stability factor that saved Ireland was the UK providing a massive bail out. This has steadly increased over the years as more funds have been necessary to keep the country from defaulting in its loans. (Sorry but the best arrival to highlight the loans is from the Telegraph. There are plenty of others if you prefer a different paper all have the same fundamental message.)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... l-out.html

Scotland would equally be ill equipped to deal with such a crisis, which I'm sure many will say will never happen again, but as history proves, everything repeats if you wait long enough. Not only will Scotland be less likely to be able to manage by itself with such a massive issue, but the rest of the Uk will also be weakened and become less resilient. Let's not forget, that the two largest banks that needed the most government assistance were RBS and Lloyds TSB, both based in Scotland.

The EU needed massive (billions) of loans from the UK to prop up countries such as Greece, Spain and Italy to name a few. The Euro would not have survived had not the UK assisted in the European Central Bank. So, Scotland's potential other currency the Euro is not as stable as Sterling has proved to be.

Overall, economically, personally and defensively the nation is stronger together should be just that, one nation.
 
If Scots vote 'No' on Thursday, will they be any less Scottish? Has three hundred years of Union in any way diminished Scottishness, or enhanced it?

And finally - would you buy a used car from Alec Salmond?
 
Just a thought about banks.

Banks may not 'produce' anything, but they do provide a service, and they're entitled to charge for providing that service, whether it is managing Jacob's overdraft or advising a multi-national company on mergers and aquisitions. Hence the taxable profit.

Whether the banks' charges are reasonable or not is another question entirely....
 
Cheshirechappie":2qwlxmh3 said:
Just a thought about banks.

Banks may not 'produce' anything, but they do provide a service, and they're entitled to charge for providing that service, whether it is managing Jacob's overdraft or advising a multi-national company on mergers and aquisitions. Hence the taxable profit.

Whether the banks' charges are reasonable or not is another question entirely....
Well yes I agree with that. But the point is they have moved a long way from being a "public" service and become a gambling joint - where their internal trading has completely overtaken the traditional function, mainly due to de-regulation. They were all guilty from Thatcher onwards - the tide still hasn't been turned by the govt.
 
Another interesting 'unknown' flagged up over the weekend was regarding mobile providers. Scotland would need to set up its own equivalent to Ofcom. What is the legal situation of these companies and their contracts in any limbo period ? Would they have to rebid? Would, in fact, they want to rebid? The topography of Scotland is not ideal for mobile signals and hence very expensive to cover/maintain coverage. The countries demographics with an ageing population mean that potential call charges to offset the extra cost of providing a service won't come anywhere close.

One only has to take a look at the RoI where O2 have pulled out for more profitable markets. The topography and demographics of the RoI is very similar to Scotland.

The more you look into it, it seems to me that the Yes campaign is run very much on wishful thinking.
 
If the YES vote wins I doubt if the cost of a letter from Glasgow to The Shetlands will remain as cheap as it is at present.

John
 
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