Elektra Beckum HC260M Help Needed

[Mike.C]

After turning on my 2 dust extractors (connected to a piped system) I switched on the P/T at which time the fuse blew. I put a new fuse in and turned it on again, and when it started I switched on the extractors. After planing a few boards I switched them off, went and got some more timber, but when I tried to start the planer it would not work, so I checked the fuse and after seeing it had failed I changed it again.
I turned it on again and then off and when I tried to start it would not work until I changed the fuse. So after changing it I finished thicknessing all the timber I needed, and on the off chance I switched it off and on again a number of times and it worked everytime ](*,)

I do not know what the hell is going on, but as part of it looked like it might be over heating I reached underneath and felt the induction motor which felt very very hot. I have no idea how hot these motors get but I could not hold my hand on it for long. ](*,)

I am hoping that it is not the motor, but unless it normally gets that hot I cannot see what else it could be. The strange thing is that except for the heat it is working normally now.

I would be grateful for any idea's?

Cheers

Mike

 

[CHJ]

Mike, does the machine turn over freely by hand (power off and unplugged of course)

Any chance a bearing is seized with dust?

 

[Mike.C]

Mike, does the machine turn over freely by hand (power off and unplugged of course)

Any chance a bearing is seized with dust?

Hi Chas,

Do you mean the cutterblock? If so yes that turns over freely. If you mean the motor itself I will have to wait until tomorrow to go out and try it. Would turning the motor by the rubber belt be ok?

Cheers

Mike

 

[CHJ]

Yes Mike, just checking the obvious, but if cutter block is moving freely then I guess the whole drive mechanism is free to spin.

If you can take the belt off the motor does it run cool or does it still heat up?
1: Is it Capacitor Start?

2: Is it Capacitor Start/Run? (Two capacitors)

3: Is it switch/capacitor start? (do you normally hear a significant click when the motor spins up?)

Thoughts behind the above;

1: Guess the fact that it appears to run fine that the capacitor is good but if motor heats with no load suspect winding short.

2: Run capacitor may be faulty but would expect power to be poor and be noticeable in use.

3: If centrifugal switch is faulty then motor could be drawing start current continually and overheating. (clean dust out of motor innards)

4: Any chance its one of the new generation electronic start motors and you have a the equivalent of 3: through malfunction. (unlikely but see last addendum below)

SEE Bobs motor thesis for information:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob.minchi ... Issue2.pdf

 

[Mike.C]

Yes Mike, just checking the obvious, but if cutter block is moving freely then I guess the whole drive mechanism is free to spin.

If you can take the belt off the motor does it run cool or does it still heat up?
1: Is it Capacitor Start?

2: Is it Capacitor Start/Run? (Two capacitors)

3: Is it switch/capacitor start? (do you normally hear a significant click when the motor spins up?)

Thoughts behind the above;

1: Guess the fact that it appears to run fine that the capacitor is good but if motor heats with no load suspect winding short.

2: Run capacitor may be faulty but would expect power to be poor and be noticeable in use.

3: If centrifugal switch is faulty then motor could be drawing start current continually and overheating. (clean dust out of motor innards)

4: Any chance its one of the new generation electronic start motors and you have a the equivalent of 3: through malfunction. (unlikely but see last addendum below)

SEE Bobs motor thesis for information:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob.minchi ... Issue2.pdf

Hi Chas,

As far as I can see there is the induction motor, a little black box (about 4"x4"), and 1 grey capacitor.

Yes the motor does make a sort of clicking sound on start up.

You mention a winding short, what is that? I get the picture of a roll of copper wire, but I don't think induction motors use that sort of thing, do they?

I have just fitted (yesterday) a pair of new cobalt blades, so it is cutting/running perfectly, with no noticeable loss of power.

What is the centrifugal switch? When you say to clean dust out of motor innards, do you mean to take the motor off the P/T and take it apart, because these induction jobbies do not have many holes to suck dust through?

No I do not think that it is one of the new generation electronic start motors because it was built in 1997.

Do you think a photo of the motor would be of any use to you?

Any other help guys would be gratefully received, as I desperately need to thickness a load of timber.

Thanks for you help so far Chas.

Cheers

Mike

 

[CHJ]

You mention a winding short, what is that? I get the picture of a roll of copper wire, but I don't think induction motors use that sort of thing, do they?

Yes they do, the field windings, on rare occasions the insulation between a few turns of one of the windings breaks down and you end up with a short circuited loop which heats up due to induction current in the loop.

I have just fitted (yesterday) a pair of new cobalt blades, so it is cutting/running perfectly, with no noticeable loss of power.

Doesn't sound as though there is anything drastic amiss.

What is the centrifugal switch? When you say to clean dust out of motor innards, do you mean to take the motor off the P/T and take it apart, because these induction jobbies do not have many holes to suck dust through?

Switch shown in Bobs Diagrams, on motors with a heavy connected load on start up requiring extra torque, then a centrifugal switch is sometimes used to inject a high startup current through a separate winding/capacitor until motor is up to speed. (on bigger systems this is done with an external controller/timer) If this is stuck or failing to work properly the motor is recieving excessive current when not required.

Do you think a photo of the motor would be of any use to you?

Possibly.

 

[9fingers]

Mike,

What are the motor ratings of the two extractors and the planer (HP or kW) and what is the fuse rating that you are blowing.

To be honest if you are running that lot on 13 amp plugs tops then I'm not surprised you are popping fuses.
Please describe your power set up as accurately as you can.

Modern motors often are designed for up to 60 degree rise in temperature add that to the ambient temperature and it is not that surprising the motor is too hot to touch in some cases.

Bob

 

[Mike.C]

While reading Bob's link I just remembered that Elektra Beckum state that it should be run on 16 amps, but for years and years now I have always used a 13 amp plug. I doubt it but could this cause a problem, all be it in a delayed reaction? :roll:

By the way the motor I have is very much like the first photo in Bob's link.

EDIT Bob our posts have crossed but I will go and get the info you asked for now.

Cheers

Mike[/img]

 

[9fingers]

EDIT Bob our posts have crossed but I will go and get the info you asked for now.

Cheers

Mike[/img]

OK Mike, I've got visitors turning up very soon but will get onto your reply as soon as poss but might be a few hours.

Bob

 

[CHJ]

While reading Bob's link I just remembered that Elektra Beckum state that it should be run on 16 amps, but for years and years now I have always used a 13 amp plug. ...
Mike

You haven't by any chance had a mains power outage recently during maintenance or fault fixing? (Slight chance your supply has been improved which has upped the voltage slightly causing you equipement to draw a bit extra current on startup.)

 

[Mike.C]

Mike,

What are the motor ratings of the two extractors and the planer (HP or kW) and what is the fuse rating that you are blowing.

To be honest if you are running that lot on 13 amp plugs tops then I'm not surprised you are popping fuses.
Please describe your power set up as accurately as you can.

Modern motors often are designed for up to 60 degree rise in temperature add that to the ambient temperature and it is not that surprising the motor is too hot to touch in some cases.

Bob

Hi Bob, yes the 2 extractors and P/T are all run on 13 amp plugs, but they have been for years and I have never had this problem before.
The strange think is that now the P/T is running again without blowing the fuses, but my worry is the temperature of the motor. All right because it is out of the way (hung under the machine) I cannot remember touching it before, and so cannot say with 100% certainly that it does not always get that hot, I would be very surprised if it is normal to get so hot you cannot leave your hand on it. Could this be normal?

You asked for the power figures, so to make sure I give you the proper ones I have taken photos of the stickers and the CU.

Motor of HC260M P/T

Capacitor of HC260M P/T

Under the P/T

Elektra Beckum SPA1100 Extractor, this is the only figures I can see. There is no plate

Scheppach 2600 Extractor

Scheppach 2600 Extractor

CU In Workshop

Although you cannot see it in the picture, one thing I did notice while taking the photo was quite a bit of dry silicone spray right in front of the motor housing grill, and before I started thicknessing yesterday I had given the threaded rods a spray to make sure they moved up and down smoothly. I believe that on the other side of this grill is the mechanism for the motors cooling fan. Now I am thinking that if some of the spray went through the grill, would it be possible for that to cause the problems I am having above?

Many thanks

Cheers

Mike

 

[Mike.C]

While reading Bob's link I just remembered that Elektra Beckum state that it should be run on 16 amps, but for years and years now I have always used a 13 amp plug. ...
Mike

You haven't by any chance had a mains power outage recently during maintenance or fault fixing? (Slight chance your supply has been improved which has upped the voltage slightly causing you equipment to draw a bit extra current on startup.)

Hi Chas,

Sorry mate but I missed your post. No except for the normal power outs where the electricity company have been doing maintenance, we have had no power outs.

Cheers

Mike

Cheers

Mike

 

[CHJ]

...You haven't by any chance had a mains power outage recently during maintenance or fault fixing? (Slight chance your supply has been improved which has upped the voltage slightly causing you equipment to draw a bit extra current on startup.)

No except for the normal power outs where the electricity company have been doing maintenance, we have had no power outs.
Cheers
Mike

Cheers

Mike

They didn't change out a local transformer by any chance?

Grasping at straws, just trying to find a reason why you might suddenly have a change in startup response.

No doubt Bob will be back to highlight what you should normally expect for the motor and your breakers.

 

[MickCheese]

I don't know the answer but will throw in a question.

If it has always worked fine until now could it be that as the motor gets tired, clogged with dust, bearings dry out a little and get stiffer does it then need to draw more current / power for the same revolutions of the cutter block?

Just me thinking out loud.

Mick

 

[9fingers]

Thanks for posting the details Mike and apologies for my slow response. Visitors now departed so I'm allowed to look at the computer once more :lol:

I'm wondering it the fuse blowing has been caused by the voltage being a bit lower than in the past and as a result the current to start the motors has been higher?

When you say fuses blowing are these in the plugs or is the MCB supplying the ring in your workshop?

I do wonder why people ignore the manufacturers instruction about using a 16amp supply though :roll:

It is very marginal to try and run that planer on a 13 amp plug. Most of the time you might get away with it. My saw has a similar motor and needs a 1amp supply and type C breaker.

I notice you have all type B's which are general purpose ones rather than designed for motor starting. However it might have been that your electrician found that the earth impedance was too high and the regs forbid type C if the earth is not good enough.

As for motor temperature, the planer motor has class F insulation which I think is up to 60 degrees above ambient. Now this refers to the wire temperature but if you have been running it for a long period and working it hard then it may aproach 70-80 dgrees case temperature which is too hot to touch.
S6-40% means that the motor is rated for continuous running but with intermittent load for 40% of the time, the rest of the time it can run but unloaded as this gives fan cooling.

If you are working it hard then I'm not surprised it gets hot.

Long term I suggest you get the planer on a 16 amp supply or share it with the saw as I assume you are never sawing and planing at the same time. Unless the type B breakers are nuisance tripping when starting I would not bother with type C just in case of earth inadequacy.

Hope this helps explain what you are seeing.

Bob

 

[Nigel]

Hi Mike
I have the later blue planer which comes with a moulded 13amp plug fitted
I run it through a Trend vac power take off and has on occasion blown the 13amp supply fuse to the vac so it is near the limit on its 13amp plug,
I would go with Bobs suggestion and install a 16amp supply because as has been mentioned age can make it a little more power hungry,

Cheers Nigel

 

[Mike.C]

Chas wrote;

They didn't change out a local transformer by any chance?

Grasping at straws, just trying to find a reason why you might suddenly have a change in start up response.

Transformer, not that I am aware of mate, but since when do the council tell us anything :lol:

Grasp away mate, you have been popping back and forward all day trying to help, which is very much appreciated.

Mick wrote;

I don't know the answer but will throw in a question.

If it has always worked fine until now could it be that as the motor gets tired, clogged with dust, bearings dry out a little and get stiffer does it then need to draw more current / power for the same revolutions of the cutter block?

Just me thinking out loud.

Mick

It could very well be Mick, but I seem to remember reading that some induction motors are sealed units.

Bob wrote;

Thanks for posting the details Mike and apologies for my slow response. Visitors now departed so I'm allowed to look at the computer once more

No problem Bob, thanks for getting back to me.

Bob wrote;

When you say fuses blowing are these in the plugs or is the MCB supplying the ring in your workshop?

The plugs.

Bob wrote;

I do wonder why people ignore the manufacturers instruction about using a 16amp supply though

To tell you the truth I bought it from a dealer when it was a couple of years old. They had taken it as a trade in and it had a 13 amp plug already on it. Also as most P/T's are the same I had never read the manual until last night, and so I had no idea it was supposed to run on 16 amp.

Bob wrote;

If you are working it hard then I'm not surprised it gets hot

I do not think that I was working it hard yesterday.

Bob wrote;

Long term I suggest you get the planer on a 16 amp supply or share it with the saw as I assume you are never sawing and planing at the same time. Unless the type B breakers are nuisance tripping when starting I would not bother with type C just in case of earth inadequacy.

If I fit a 16 amp plug to the P/T can I run it on a 16 amp extension lead, because it is on the other side of the workshop from the 16 amp socket?

I do not if you noticed the question above but if a dry silicon spray got into the motor through the grill, could this have cause the problem?

Many thanks for your advice Bob.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Mike.C]

Hi Mike
I have the later blue planer which comes with a moulded 13amp plug fitted
I run it through a Trend vac power take off and has on occasion blown the 13amp supply fuse to the vac so it is near the limit on its 13amp plug,
I would go with Bobs suggestion and install a 16amp supply because as has been mentioned age can make it a little more power hungry,

Cheers Nigel

Hi Nigel thanks for your post. Was the P/T new when you bought it? If so it is strange that Metabo/Elektra Beckum recommend a 16 amp system but put a 13 amp plug on :roll:

Cheers

Mike

 

[9fingers]

Mike,

Running on a 16amp extension lead should be fine - 2.5 sq mm round flexible cable with 16A connector both ends. Dont use the flat twin & earth stuff.
Make sure you don't create a trip hazard with the lead. Ideally a few hooks across the ceiling to support the cable.

Motor is a sealed type. At worst the spray would have landed on the fan blades and dust might have stuck on, but a dry spray should not have caused a problem.
Try and make it a routine to blow out the motor fans on all your induction motors with an airline - say every month.

Look pretty clean in your photos though.

hth

Bob

 

[Mike.C]

Mike,

Running on a 16amp extension lead should be fine - 2.5 sq mm round flexible cable with 16A connector both ends. Don't use the flat twin & earth stuff.
Make sure you don't create a trip hazard with the lead. Ideally a few hooks across the ceiling to support the cable.

Motor is a sealed type. At worst the spray would have landed on the fan blades and dust might have stuck on, but a dry spray should not have caused a problem.
Try and make it a routine to blow out the motor fans on all your induction motors with an airline - say every month.

Look pretty clean in your photos though.

hth

Bob

I do try and look after my machines which is why it look clean, but I do not blow the motors out at all, so that advice is a great help. Hopefully when I put it on 16 amp it may be ok, although from what you say the temperature of the motor/fins might be normal anyway.
I will blow the motor out, get a 16 amp plug and after running it for a while I will update you.

Cheers

Mike